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Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 13:27:04 GMT
Christ The Tories are in trouble thenš± Don't worry Oldie not as much as the Lefties š PS Whats the latest on our new stadium? Al i've heard they are having a lot of trouble over which side of the new stadium the entrance will br ,do they go left,right, far left far right, just put em in the fecking middle |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 13:27:32 GMT
Christ The Tories are in trouble thenš± Don't worry Oldie not as much as the Lefties š PS Whats the latest on our new stadium? The stadium question went over my head...what am I missing? |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 13, 2020 13:34:25 GMT
That one was clearly an attempt at humour and aimed at one person in authority. The other was, in my view, written to be a serious statement. It was written with a reason, either because the carrier believed it or is trying to get a message out. It is also a long held view by some, attributed to Jimmy Carter's UN Ambassador I recall. The problem for me is that even if most reasonable people know it to be false, it is still going to raise passions, both by those who want to believe it and by those who think it is believed, such as the EDL. Ok, ignoring the EFL who find a greeting of "hello" as provocative, did that placard result in violence? I guess that's the acid test. EFL? Maybe š The placard itself, who knows, but the idea of writing those messages is to get a point across, otherwise why bother. The problem is that condensing a message into a few words that is factually indeterminable means it is open to interpretation, especially by those who wish to stir up trouble. |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 13, 2020 13:40:04 GMT
That one was clearly an attempt at humour and aimed at one person in authority. The other was, in my view, written to be a serious statement. It was written with a reason, either because the carrier believed it or is trying to get a message out. It is also a long held view by some, attributed to Jimmy Carter's UN Ambassador I recall. The problem for me is that even if most reasonable people know it to be false, it is still going to raise passions, both by those who want to believe it and by those who think it is believed, such as the EDL. Ok, ignoring the EFL who find a greeting of "hello" as provocative, did that placard result in violence? I guess that's the acid test. Did it? Donāt know tbh. Also ask yourself the question āWill it result in violence?ā Donāt know to that one either tbh. But it is possible if there are people out there who (rightly or wrongly) believe that sort of thing and/or are using it to plant these things in peopleās thought patterns. The (rational) debate has to be a balanced one and not one predicated on this sort of mis-information. What other placards (with other mis-informed messages) are/were out there? |
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Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 13:49:45 GMT
Gassy, you say "systematic racism" is a sh** slogan, you then say you read an article with "systematic racism " in the title did you tell the author it was a sh**e title. Of course there's racism everywhere, but unless you are one of those blind sheeple type ,you have to admit it's much less than it was in the 70's-80's. According to you every thing that is not black is racist, education ,If people don't want to be educated then you can't force them to learn, an example 2 brothers from the school I went to ,one worked his tits off to learn his brother couldn't be arsed. Guess which one went on to good employment and which one went on to basically not get a job, twas the same for white kids some dint give a stuff. You say that some with more qualifications are overlooked for promotion, having more qualifications does not mean that you are better than those with less qualifications, there's a lot more than certificates required to take a higher position, unfortunately not everyone with more qualifications will get promoted. At work years back I had a guy in my team, sh**e loads of qualifications, I trained him to a very high level, an opening appeared at a higher level on paper he was the kiddie for the job, in reality he was f**king hopeless, the second someone else got the job he cried racism, he just would not accept that he could not have done the job efficiently. It's the same for white people some don't get the jobs they are qualified for as they would maybe hopeless dealing with people , lazy, always off sick, insert a reason here. Do people like you not also realise that if a company doesn't reach is quota for positive discrimination it's deemed racist etc, you can't force someone into a job because of their skin colour. No, I said "end systematic racism now" is a sh** slogan. Let me be clear, the message isn't sh**, just the slogan. It isn't catchy, easy to chant & it's too long. I'm talking only from a slogan point of view. Shouldn't slogans be 3 words? EG, Kick it out, get brexit done, protect the NHS etc. @gas365 this is why I think it's a rubbish slogan - FYI. According to me everything that is not black is racist? Where have I said that? I'm saying that statistically speaking, if things were equal then we'd see that in society. At times we would see +/- margins of error, of course. But we don't, do we? Instead we pretty much see in every industry people of BAME backgrounds in worser positions. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught, that's true. But again, unless you're saying that BAME people don't want to be taught (which I assume you're not), then statistically we'd see the same numbers across the situation. But we're not. On top of that, it wasn't me personally saying about promotions. It was an internal NHS report that actually found and proved systematic racism. Doesn't matter how you spin it. On top of that, the report was then quashed. Coincidence? I donāt get why the āsudden triggerā (which was the actions of a police officer in America- racist or otherwise) should have caused the reaction it has in the U.K. The U.K. was massively racist during the slave trade era but every generation since has improved and very little is left. Iāve not really heard anything constructive regarding what exactly needs to change. All Iām seeing is slogans, sound bites, lots of shouting, vandalism, public disorder and blatant disregard for virus spread. I wouldn't say very little is left. Just look at society. I do think we're probably one of the better countries, but doesn't mean we can't do better. Ultimately it's protests and making people aware of the situation that actually drives change. If nothing is done at all, nothing will change. It might seem or sound revolutionary now, but the change in which it will drive in the long term will only be a good thing for equality. Overall, I think it's very easy for people in a majority white country to say "I don't think there's much racism". How do they know? Every statistic tells us there is racism. Sure, it's not as bad as the US - something that I'm proud of at least. Some of you may know I lived abroad recently, my asian friend was killed in the street. The man who did it had photos on facebook of himself in KKK outfits and nazi uniforms. As my friend lied there bleeding from his head, the pr*ck put his foot on his chest as an act of superiority and took photos of him. I've also been with a black friend walking through the streets as pricks threw bananas at him and made monkey chants. Genuinely, the whole thing makes me feel f*cking sick just going back to it. I am proud that we don't have this extreme racism in the UK. I want what is best for the UK and I believe true equality is the way to do that. I want us to be the leading and best country in the world, where everyone looks at how the UK does it. As a country, we can do better. Gassy I said black or white don't wish to be taught not all but some, i never denied there is no racism ,i said it's a lot better now than 70's 80's uk, do you remember the archie chants, nf stickers everywhere etc. See the thing is when these reports go up it doesn't take into account people not being promoted because someone with lesser qualifications got the job, that's the issue with these reports they always take numbers as proof, say there were 2 jobs one went to a yank one went to a frog the 7 black and asian people who applied dint get it as although the so called qualifications were higher than those who got the job, they couldn't do the role without a lot more training in say basic type skills(not saying people are dense). Then when a report is done, it is totally out of context and the data is flawed, People don't seem to realise that to discard someone because of skin colour isn't easy in the work place. These things need to be balanced, it's like with the cops, the majority are white, not through racist recruitment but because not many want to be a cop, then they go all out to recruit people from those communities still cant fill the roles then it becomes racist recruitment policies. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 13, 2020 13:55:58 GMT
Don't worry Oldie not as much as the Lefties š PS Whats the latest on our new stadium? The stadium question went over my head...what am I missing? I remember you posted that 'it was gonna happen' or similarly positive in Gas Works a while back so I thought you were itk? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 13:56:34 GMT
Ok, ignoring the EFL who find a greeting of "hello" as provocative, did that placard result in violence? I guess that's the acid test. Did it? Donāt know tbh. Also ask yourself the question āWill it result in violence?ā Donāt know to that one either tbh. But it is possible if there are people out there who (rightly or wrongly) believe that sort of thing and/or are using it to plant these things in peopleās thought patterns. The (rational) debate has to be a balanced one and not one predicated on this sort of mis-information. What other placards (with other mis-informed messages) are/were out there?Ā Of course, there will always be loonies. I guess the point is you cannot super impose their reactions on the vast majority, nor try and deny that majority the right of assembly as a result. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 13, 2020 13:58:00 GMT
Don't worry Oldie not as much as the Lefties š PS Whats the latest on our new stadium? Al i've heard they are having a lot of trouble over which side of the new stadium the entrance will br ,do they go left,right, far left far right, just put em in the fecking middle Well as long as they don't go in the back entrance, it's never been a fav of mine Dar |
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Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 13:58:24 GMT
The lads are out with some dubious hang gestures Britain's finest. More people than brain cells. And there was i thinking you loved our cops |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 13:59:33 GMT
The stadium question went over my head...what am I missing? I remember you posted that 'it was gonna happen' or similarly positive in Gas Works a while back so I thought you were itk? Ah...so you are transposing threads to make what particular point? Most certainly not in the know. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 14:00:24 GMT
Britain's finest. More people than brain cells. And there was i thinking you loved our cops šš Touche |
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 13, 2020 14:08:31 GMT
Did it? Donāt know tbh. Also ask yourself the question āWill it result in violence?ā Donāt know to that one either tbh. But it is possible if there are people out there who (rightly or wrongly) believe that sort of thing and/or are using it to plant these things in peopleās thought patterns. The (rational) debate has to be a balanced one and not one predicated on this sort of mis-information. What other placards (with other mis-informed messages) are/were out there? Of course, there will always be loonies. I guess the point is you cannot super impose their reactions on the vast majority, nor try and deny that majority the right of assembly as a result. Not sure that anyone is advocating denying the right of assembly (maybe now aināt a good time though š¤). But, as I said, the debate needs to be based on facts not mis-truths (like that placard) in a rational manner like the lady you quoted earlier. Just hope sane voices like that are not drowned out so that the, as you say, ālooniesā donāt win the day. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 13, 2020 14:11:24 GMT
I remember you posted that 'it was gonna happen' or similarly positive in Gas Works a while back so I thought you were itk? Ah...so you are transposing threads to make what particular point? Most certainly not in the know. The point that you sounded itk |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 15:39:50 GMT
I still donāt know what the protestors want. Plenty of slogans and catchphrases but nothing of any substance. An over aggressive policeman in America causes the death of a black guy, this causes understandable protests over there but what does this have to do with the U.K?
A collective message of support for their cause is fine but what is it they are looking to achieve here by protesting and acts of vandalism? Iāve still to hear someone set out some proposals of what exactly needs to change and what is currently so wrong in the U.K.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 15:48:46 GMT
NaĆÆve, probably. Dangerous, definitely. It's this kind of misinformation that touches the raw feelings that some people have and a groupĀ ofĀ demonstratorsĀ can get whipped up into a violent mob. It only takes someone to stand up and start spouting suchĀ false words andĀ it starts spreading among those that want it to be trueĀ and then it becomes fact in the minds of some (reminds me of Gaschat rumours). Then one thing leads to another and shop windows start getting smashed. I actually think that is an insult to the people leading the BLM movement generally. Of course every "movement" has its membership that demands "action" but if you listen more carefully to what it's leadership are saying, they are demanding not much more than you and I might expect in an "equal" society. I give as an example one of the organisers of the BLM protest in Bristol. (I wish I could remember her name!) Asked if she approved of the toppling of the Colston statue she said, very clearly, that she had not set out to that, she understood why and the motivation, but if she had total control she would have preferred a rewording of the plaque. So, Farage like, it's easy to quote the press (which interestingly is never referenced as a source of information) in its most sensationalist claims, when the truth is far more nuanced. I donāt think it is any secret that that is the case- the statue stuff seems to have been by Bristol Rising: BLM which is not the other BLM. Bristol Rising BLM have been talking to the media giving advice to the culprits on what to do to avoid prosecution. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 15:55:40 GMT
Of course, there will always be loonies. I guess the point is you cannot super impose their reactions on the vast majority, nor try and deny that majority the right of assembly as a result. Not sure that anyone is advocating denying the right of assembly (maybe now aināt a good time though š¤). But, as I said, the debate needs to be based on facts not mis-truths (like that placard) in a rational manner like the lady you quoted earlier. Just hope sane voices like that are not drowned out so that the, as you say, ālooniesā donāt win the day.Ā And what is becoming abundantly clear is there are just as many loonies on the left as on the right. See that John Cleese video, heās absolutely nailed it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 15:57:35 GMT
I still donāt know what the protestors want. Plenty of slogans and catchphrases but nothing of any substance. An over aggressive policeman in America causes the death of a black guy, this causes understandable protests over there but what does this have to do with the U.K? A collective message of support for their cause is fine but what is it they are looking to achieve here by protesting and acts of vandalism? Iāve still to hear someone set out some proposals of what exactly needs to change and what is currently so wrong in the U.K. And this is exactly the problem with protest vs political action. Nobody knows what these people want and more importantly how they will achieve it- least of all themselves. Hence why the name needs to be better. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 16:40:12 GMT
Some cognitive dissonance to show how complex this whole āblack lives matterā stuff is:
Black police officer shoots and kills a white autistic 6 year old. Was that racism? How do you know?
It certainly does beg the question about why more isnāt known about white people brutalised by the police. Doing so certainly gives a more rounded picture of Police brutality in North America and āwhite privilegeā (when dealing with the Police).
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 13, 2020 16:43:32 GMT
Not sure that anyone is advocating denying the right of assembly (maybe now aināt a good time though š¤). But, as I said, the debate needs to be based on facts not mis-truths (like that placard) in a rational manner like the lady you quoted earlier. Just hope sane voices like that are not drowned out so that the, as you say, ālooniesā donāt win the day. And what is becoming abundantly clear is there are just as many loonies on the left as on the right. See that John Cleese video, heās absolutely nailed it. ābecomingā?? |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 13, 2020 17:23:50 GMT
No, I said "end systematic racism now" is a sh** slogan. Let me be clear, the message isn't sh**, just the slogan. It isn't catchy, easy to chant & it's too long. I'm talking only from a slogan point of view. Shouldn't slogans be 3 words? EG, Kick it out, get brexit done, protect the NHS etc. @gas365 this is why I think it's a rubbish slogan - FYI. According to me everything that is not black is racist? Where have I said that? I'm saying that statistically speaking, if things were equal then we'd see that in society. At times we would see +/- margins of error, of course. But we don't, do we? Instead we pretty much see in every industry people of BAME backgrounds in worser positions. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught, that's true. But again, unless you're saying that BAME people don't want to be taught (which I assume you're not), then statistically we'd see the same numbers across the situation. But we're not. On top of that, it wasn't me personally saying about promotions. It was an internal NHS report that actually found and proved systematic racism. Doesn't matter how you spin it. On top of that, the report was then quashed. Coincidence? I wouldn't say very little is left. Just look at society. I do think we're probably one of the better countries, but doesn't mean we can't do better. Ultimately it's protests and making people aware of the situation that actually drives change. If nothing is done at all, nothing will change. It might seem or sound revolutionary now, but the change in which it will drive in the long term will only be a good thing for equality. Overall, I think it's very easy for people in a majority white country to say "I don't think there's much racism". How do they know? Every statistic tells us there is racism. Sure, it's not as bad as the US - something that I'm proud of at least. Some of you may know I lived abroad recently, my asian friend was killed in the street. The man who did it had photos on facebook of himself in KKK outfits and nazi uniforms. As my friend lied there bleeding from his head, the pr*ck put his foot on his chest as an act of superiority and took photos of him. I've also been with a black friend walking through the streets as pricks threw bananas at him and made monkey chants. Genuinely, the whole thing makes me feel f*cking sick just going back to it. I am proud that we don't have this extreme racism in the UK. I want what is best for the UK and I believe true equality is the way to do that. I want us to be the leading and best country in the world, where everyone looks at how the UK does it. As a country, we can do better. Gassy I said black or white don't wish to be taught not all but some, i never denied there is no racism ,i said it's a lot better now than 70's 80's uk, do you remember the archie chants, nf stickers everywhere etc. See the thing is when these reports go up it doesn't take into account people not being promoted because someone with lesser qualifications got the job, that's the issue with these reports they always take numbers as proof, say there were 2 jobs one went to a yank one went to a frog the 7 black and asian people who applied dint get it as although the so called qualifications were higher than those who got the job, they couldn't do the role without a lot more training in say basic type skills(not saying people are dense). Then when a report is done, it is totally out of context and the data is flawed, People don't seem to realise that to discard someone because of skin colour isn't easy in the work place. These things need to be balanced, it's like with the cops, the majority are white, not through racist recruitment but because not many want to be a cop, then they go all out to recruit people from those communities still cant fill the roles then it becomes racist recruitment policies. Apologies for the misunderstanding. I believe it was Al who believes there is no racism in the UK. I understand the point you're making (regarding reports), but again it just backs up my point that statistically we would see this equally. If society was actually equal then we'd some some BAME not get jobs and sometimes they've have more. But we don't. It's only the negative. On top of that, the report found that this unit of the NHS wasn't just about gettign jobs/promotions, but the treatment of staff. From what you've said, I can only assume you haven't read the article. If you get the chance, take a gander: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/09/nhs-blood-unit-systematically-racist-internal-report-findsNow a report from Public Health England has found that, "Factors such as racism and social inequality may have contributed to increased risks of black, Asian and minority communities catching and dying from Covid-19, a leaked report says." - www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53035054I think you yourself posted a week or so about how BAME people being affected by Covid could be down to lack of vitamin D or something. Although the statistics don't suggest that, because if that was the case - wouldn't Asia be hit far worse than it was? I wonder whether certain posters (not you) still deny the institutional racism in the country? |
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