Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 17:29:05 GMT
With total respect gassy, black people are far far far more likely to die at the hands of other black people than the Police so if anything black people see *their own* lives as expendable. If the issue is specifically about the Police and institutional racism then just change the name of the movement to reflect that. Calling yourselves “black lives matter” whilst not focusing on the biggest threat to black lives just invites the kind of critical response the movement doesn’t want. Change the name and make your aims clearer. It’s an issue for me, I’ll be honest- I support wholeheartedly the aim of ending institutional racism of any description. I want equality of opportunity for all (pandemic not withstanding), but the name “black lives matter” is very problematic to me for the reasons I outlined. With all due respect 365 if you can't see the issues of black on black violence are down to decades of systemic racism, then I worry for you. But, as you seem to be uneducated on the subject I'll educate you. During the 60s it was practically impossible for someone who was black to be gifted a loan or a mortgage. In fact a study conduced in the 80s found that a high-income black family was still much less likely to receive a loan than that of a low-income white family. I think it's fairly self-explanatory why things like this and the obvious wage inequalities of the time led to whites as a demographic being generally financially better-off than blacks. This obviously leads to blacks turning to crime more as a means to get by, as a means to survive. Also the idea that there have never been any movements against black on black crime is frankly absurd, just last year there was Blue Story which raised a huge talking point on the issue, but there have been discussions and campaigns against gang violence, specifically in areas like London and Compton California, for decades. I just think it boggles the mind 365, imagine you're of a low-income black household next door to a high-income white household, if by all means you're a miracle-worker and can receive just as good an education and eventual degree, assuming you're one of a lucky few of the circumstance where you are financially capable of doing this, even after all this and all these injustices. Those with white sounding names are 3x more likely to get job interviews/offers than those with black sounding names with the SAME CV. It's complete and utter ridiculous injustices that black lives matter aims to conquer, the media has been stirring up a culture war recently. The Black Lives Matter movement doesn't demand he removal of certain TV shows, it's a deliberate act to antagonise, belittle and vilify Black Lives Matter and cause a divide, 365 do not buy into it. Black lives matter calls for an end to these issues of systemic racism, breaking the cycle of poverty frequently found in black neighbourhoods, as a direct consequence of this black on black violence will dramatically decrease. Of course there are extremists of a movement, every political movement has them, but don't buy into the media vilification by absolute scum like Mike Graham and Tommy Robinson. But once again- with that you are depriving black people of their own agency. You are telling me that because of racism black people are forced to pick up guns and knives and kill each other and there is no moral choice to be made that even as poor as they are there is a moral high road they can take that does not involve crime much less killing people who are in the same boat as them. Do you excuse dirt poor white criminals who resort to crime too? We all have a choice. As poor as you are you can still aspire to be better, that’s the issue from my understanding, there is no aspiration to be better because there is a victim narrative that gives black people the perfect excuse not to try and just give in to their circumstances, coupled with the lack of role models to stop black youths drifting into gangs. Go to school, get a good education (in fact this is happening- which is a positive, the worst performing kids are white working class who are on free school meals who are the least likely to achieve 5 GCSEs) and try and beat the system in a positive way. I’ve already raised the point about STEM- certainly in technology I haven’t experienced any racist environments or barriers to entry as long as you are good enough. How many young black youths are being encouraged by their elders to choose this route? Do they even want to be scientists? If not, why not? You actually highlight a problem by name checking Blue Story- was that the film that sparked gang turf wars in cinemas involving knives while little children were queueing to see frozen 2? That film? How ironic. For me, that says a lot about the sort of stuff that is out there in popular culture to ‘inspire’ black youths. What I want to understand is how much of black on black crime is forced upon black youths and how much is choice. It’s a very difficult subject to broach because black culture is the last taboo in society that you can talk about. As a white person I have lots and lots of privilege but critiquing the black community/culture is certainly not one of them. But, as has become clear, I am not afraid to shy away from these topics and genuinely would weclome an open discussion on it- how does black culture (specifically music and film) encourage black kids to want to be accountants or programmers and not a profession of a more criminal bent because it is perceived to be “cool” and ‘glamourised’ by media (rap music in particular)? I have no intention of being stirred up by extremists on the far right but neither am I willing to be stirred up by their counter parts on the far left either. I used to think I was on the left but these days I feel more in the centre, trying to ask questions and make my own mind up without joining the pitchfork wielding mob that have made something of a bandwagon since George Floyd’s death. Both the far left and far right will tell me their version of the truth and neither is likely to be even 80% accurate.
|
|
|
Post by Gassy on Jun 13, 2020 17:29:41 GMT
Unless I've missed it, I don't seem to find any comments on here about the Alred Fagon statue (black playwright) being covered in bleach?
I find it funny that we have politicians close our libraries, but claim that statues are of educational importance?
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Jun 13, 2020 17:30:44 GMT
Not sure that anyone is advocating denying the right of assembly (maybe now ain’t a good time though 🤔). But, as I said, the debate needs to be based on facts not mis-truths (like that placard) in a rational manner like the lady you quoted earlier. Just hope sane voices like that are not drowned out so that the, as you say, “loonies” don’t win the day. And what is becoming abundantly clear is there are just as many loonies on the left as on the right. See that John Cleese video, he’s absolutely nailed it. When the loudest are heard the most and empty vessels make most noise it's not surprising where we are is it? Thank God for democratic elections.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 17:36:50 GMT
Gassy I said black or white don't wish to be taught not all but some, i never denied there is no racism ,i said it's a lot better now than 70's 80's uk, do you remember the archie chants, nf stickers everywhere etc. See the thing is when these reports go up it doesn't take into account people not being promoted because someone with lesser qualifications got the job, that's the issue with these reports they always take numbers as proof, say there were 2 jobs one went to a yank one went to a frog the 7 black and asian people who applied dint get it as although the so called qualifications were higher than those who got the job, they couldn't do the role without a lot more training in say basic type skills(not saying people are dense). Then when a report is done, it is totally out of context and the data is flawed, People don't seem to realise that to discard someone because of skin colour isn't easy in the work place. These things need to be balanced, it's like with the cops, the majority are white, not through racist recruitment but because not many want to be a cop, then they go all out to recruit people from those communities still cant fill the roles then it becomes racist recruitment policies. Apologies for the misunderstanding. I believe it was Al who believes there is no racism in the UK. I understand the point you're making (regarding reports), but again it just backs up my point that statistically we would see this equally. If society was actually equal then we'd some some BAME not get jobs and sometimes they've have more. But we don't. It's only the negative. On top of that, the report found that this unit of the NHS wasn't just about gettign jobs/promotions, but the treatment of staff. From what you've said, I can only assume you haven't read the article. If you get the chance, take a gander: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/09/nhs-blood-unit-systematically-racist-internal-report-findsNow a report from Public Health England has found that, "Factors such as racism and social inequality may have contributed to increased risks of black, Asian and minority communities catching and dying from Covid-19, a leaked report says." - www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53035054I think you yourself posted a week or so about how BAME people being affected by Covid could be down to lack of vitamin D or something. Although the statistics don't suggest that, because if that was the case - wouldn't Asia be hit far worse than it was? I wonder whether certain posters (not you) still deny the institutional racism in the country? You’re cherry picking a bit there gassy. The report according to the BBC says that no research has yet been done into vitamin D/genetic factors. There is also mitigating factors for the African continent such as the population having a younger average age so it is not total corroboration that BAME deaths in the U.K. are down to poverty. That being said poverty certainly doesn’t help, but IIRC there was a report that found that the poorest were hardest hit out of any social strata. I mean, no sh** 🤦♂️ It will be a really interesting acid test for the findings of that report- will the proposals be implemented? This could be the first step on the road to some positive legislation to address BAME issues. A small but positive step. Let’s hope something comes of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 17:37:54 GMT
And what is becoming abundantly clear is there are just as many loonies on the left as on the right. See that John Cleese video, he’s absolutely nailed it. When the loudest are heard the most and empty vessels make most noise it's not surprising where we are is it? Thank God for democratic elections. “squeaky wheels need the most grease”. Not that I can talk! 🤷♂️
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Jun 13, 2020 17:44:52 GMT
When the loudest are heard the most and empty vessels make most noise it's not surprising where we are is it? Thank God for democratic elections. “squeaky wheels need the most grease”. Not that I can talk! 🤷♂️ Well writing doesn't break many windows!
|
|
|
Post by Gassy on Jun 13, 2020 17:46:04 GMT
Apologies for the misunderstanding. I believe it was Al who believes there is no racism in the UK. I understand the point you're making (regarding reports), but again it just backs up my point that statistically we would see this equally. If society was actually equal then we'd some some BAME not get jobs and sometimes they've have more. But we don't. It's only the negative. On top of that, the report found that this unit of the NHS wasn't just about gettign jobs/promotions, but the treatment of staff. From what you've said, I can only assume you haven't read the article. If you get the chance, take a gander: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/09/nhs-blood-unit-systematically-racist-internal-report-findsNow a report from Public Health England has found that, "Factors such as racism and social inequality may have contributed to increased risks of black, Asian and minority communities catching and dying from Covid-19, a leaked report says." - www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53035054I think you yourself posted a week or so about how BAME people being affected by Covid could be down to lack of vitamin D or something. Although the statistics don't suggest that, because if that was the case - wouldn't Asia be hit far worse than it was? I wonder whether certain posters (not you) still deny the institutional racism in the country? You’re cherry picking a bit there gassy. The report according to the BBC says that no research has yet been done into vitamin D/genetic factors. There is also mitigating factors for the African continent such as the population having a younger average age so it is not total corroboration that BAME deaths in the U.K. are down to poverty. That being said poverty certainly doesn’t help, but IIRC there was a report that found that the poorest were hardest hit out of any social strata. I mean, no sh** 🤦♂️ It will be a really interesting acid test for the findings of that report- will the proposals be implemented? This could be the first step on the road to some positive legislation to address BAME issues. A small but positive step. Let’s hope something comes of it. Unless I’ve misunderstood your point, I think you’ve misunderstood my point (if that makes sense). I’m saying that inee has posted previously about vitamin D deficiencies. I’m saying that if that was the case, then the mortality rate would be higher in Asia, surely? This is irrelevant to the BBC article. But agree with your point, hopefully something comes out of it. The first step is always admitting where the problem is. Then we can properly tackle it (hopefully)
|
|
stuart1974
Proper Gas
Posts: 12,479
Member is Online
|
Post by stuart1974 on Jun 13, 2020 17:58:00 GMT
Unless I've missed it, I don't seem to find any comments on here about the Alred Fagon statue (black playwright) being covered in bleach? I find it funny that we have politicians close our libraries, but claim that statues are of educational importance? I posted a link yesterday and Hugo reposted an old comment from another forum member who talked about damaging it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 18:44:54 GMT
Ah...so you are transposing threads to make what particular point? Most certainly not in the know. The point that you sounded itk Sorry Al I have no idea, in the context of this debate, how my opinion on a new ground is even remotely relevant 🤔🤔🤔
|
|
|
Post by Gas Go Marching In on Jun 13, 2020 19:33:17 GMT
Fed up of all this hate and violence. Wankers on both side of the protests today and last week. All they are doing is causing more division. Why can't we just be civilised human beings
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 19:44:12 GMT
You’re cherry picking a bit there gassy. The report according to the BBC says that no research has yet been done into vitamin D/genetic factors. There is also mitigating factors for the African continent such as the population having a younger average age so it is not total corroboration that BAME deaths in the U.K. are down to poverty. That being said poverty certainly doesn’t help, but IIRC there was a report that found that the poorest were hardest hit out of any social strata. I mean, no sh** 🤦♂️ It will be a really interesting acid test for the findings of that report- will the proposals be implemented? This could be the first step on the road to some positive legislation to address BAME issues. A small but positive step. Let’s hope something comes of it. Unless I’ve misunderstood your point, I think you’ve misunderstood my point (if that makes sense). I’m saying that inee has posted previously about vitamin D deficiencies. I’m saying that if that was the case, then the mortality rate would be higher in Asia, surely? This is irrelevant to the BBC article. But agree with your point, hopefully something comes out of it. The first step is always admitting where the problem is. Then we can properly tackle it (hopefully) Ah my bad- I didn’t pick up on that!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 19:48:08 GMT
Fed up of all this hate and violence. Wankers on both side of the protests today and last week. All they are doing is causing more division. Why can't we just be civilised human beings Is the U.K. a better place today than it was a few weeks ago before these protests started? After a couple of months of people being noticeably more pleasant towards each other whilst we all learnt to live with this sh**ty virus things have been set back decades, all so unnecessary imo.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 20:04:02 GMT
Fed up of all this hate and violence. Wankers on both side of the protests today and last week. All they are doing is causing more division. Why can't we just be civilised human beings I shall never stop staying that there are some rich, white, grey haired old men out there, right now, laughing their tits off at how the proletariat are squabbling amongst ourselves in the dirt over race, gender, sexuality and the environment while social mobility decreases and poverty slaps us in the face.
|
|
|
Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 20:48:05 GMT
Gassy I said black or white don't wish to be taught not all but some, i never denied there is no racism ,i said it's a lot better now than 70's 80's uk, do you remember the archie chants, nf stickers everywhere etc. See the thing is when these reports go up it doesn't take into account people not being promoted because someone with lesser qualifications got the job, that's the issue with these reports they always take numbers as proof, say there were 2 jobs one went to a yank one went to a frog the 7 black and asian people who applied dint get it as although the so called qualifications were higher than those who got the job, they couldn't do the role without a lot more training in say basic type skills(not saying people are dense). Then when a report is done, it is totally out of context and the data is flawed, People don't seem to realise that to discard someone because of skin colour isn't easy in the work place. These things need to be balanced, it's like with the cops, the majority are white, not through racist recruitment but because not many want to be a cop, then they go all out to recruit people from those communities still cant fill the roles then it becomes racist recruitment policies. Apologies for the misunderstanding. I believe it was Al who believes there is no racism in the UK. I understand the point you're making (regarding reports), but again it just backs up my point that statistically we would see this equally. If society was actually equal then we'd some some BAME not get jobs and sometimes they've have more. But we don't. It's only the negative. On top of that, the report found that this unit of the NHS wasn't just about gettign jobs/promotions, but the treatment of staff. From what you've said, I can only assume you haven't read the article. If you get the chance, take a gander: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/09/nhs-blood-unit-systematically-racist-internal-report-findsNow a report from Public Health England has found that, "Factors such as racism and social inequality may have contributed to increased risks of black, Asian and minority communities catching and dying from Covid-19, a leaked report says." - www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53035054I think you yourself posted a week or so about how BAME people being affected by Covid could be down to lack of vitamin D or something. Although the statistics don't suggest that, because if that was the case - wouldn't Asia be hit far worse than it was? I wonder whether certain posters (not you) still deny the institutional racism in the country? No as if you think about it the main source of vitamin D is by skin absorption from the sun, Other countries have a lot more sun than us also take into account that skin colour has a lot to do with absorption rates, so most white people will get their vit D easily. unfortunately the black community get less, if this is the case Vit D levels can easily be raised either by tablet, uv lamp exposure and foodstuffs. As has been mentioned on the bbc report it hasn't been studied enough, maybe it's something that was studies for someone's uni exams. But its time it was studied by the nhs or another research group. (not being racist in any way shape or form just trying to put it out there in simple terms) I read your report tudder day, and it's a bit to blinkered as its only mentions 2 departments ,also the report mentions it was what they had been told, it doesn't mention if it was fully looked into, although 1 team leader said they wouldn't have a muslim in the department, again it could be racist or it could be that the religion is incompatible with the job, as i mentioned before it's very hard to spot racism within job distribution as no-one going to say oh I dint promote Dave because he's the wrong shade of human, I'm not saying it doesn't go on because it does ,but my point is not every instance is racist, and to be fair if people were overtly racist or a pattern developed in the way they dealt with groups of people there's various ways of reporting it. In fairness to Al's' posts i read it the other way that in his capacity in the industry he's in he hasn't seen any of it. but not that it doesnt exist.(Not speaking for Al but telling the way i read it) I Din't really agree with the bbc article as it is effectively saying that non white are dying because of racism ,and that's a dangerous path to go down. When Italy went through a very high infection rate, it was said one area suffered more due to the area being poor(trevgas will hopefully remember the name of the region) . Is the reason the poor are catching covid down to the fact that they have to go out more as they cant stockpile food etc. You also need to be careful just lumping in the word bame as within that group there are different figures, from memory it went along these line Black Women were more likely to get covid than others, followed closely by Black men, followed by Indian then Pakistani groups. i cant remember if people from Bangladesh over here were at the top or bottom of the list. So as you can see we need to be more specific when mentioning these groups as otherwise you get a distorted view of the people who are affected most, as it goes over the heads of a lot of people. Again if you look at the highest groups is it because the women are out and about more trying to get food in for the day. Problem is in reality the yanks will never learn, the cops will still continue to kill people willy nilly, people will still fund organisations like Rent-A-mob er I meant antifa to start trouble in black areas which ultimately leads to those areas becoming ghettos until someone repairs the damage, but wont start sh** in the nice middle class American areas they live in, one video i saw was an older black man pleading with demonstrators to stop destroying his shop,
|
|
|
Post by Gassy on Jun 13, 2020 20:50:30 GMT
It’s really weird to think that kids will study the year 2020. Reading through the news & videos I almost can’t believe what I’m seeing
|
|
|
Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 20:56:35 GMT
Fed up of all this hate and violence. Wankers on both side of the protests today and last week. All they are doing is causing more division. Why can't we just be civilised human beings I shall never stop staying that there are some rich, white, grey haired old men out there, right now, laughing their tits off at how the proletariat are squabbling amongst ourselves in the dirt over race, gender, sexuality and the environment while social mobility decreases and poverty slaps us in the face. You mean bLair n brown w**king each other off on london commonland
|
|
|
Post by inee on Jun 13, 2020 20:57:44 GMT
Fed up of all this hate and violence. Wankers on both side of the protests today and last week. All they are doing is causing more division. Why can't we just be civilised human beings If only we knew the answer to that one
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 9:16:53 GMT
At the heart of the English Establishment Check out this story: Boris Johnson said colonialism in Africa should never have ended and dismissed Britain's role in slavery flip.it/UZ591W from Flipboard.
|
|
|
Post by trevorgas on Jun 14, 2020 10:27:29 GMT
At the heart of the English Establishment Check out this story: Boris Johnson said colonialism in Africa should never have ended and dismissed Britain's role in slavery flip.it/UZ591W from Flipboard. Tbh Les and good morning, or don't pay much attention to stuff dragged up from 20 years ago,I will judge him and his government by what they do, now they have the power .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 10:41:20 GMT
At the heart of the English Establishment Check out this story: Boris Johnson said colonialism in Africa should never have ended and dismissed Britain's role in slavery flip.it/UZ591W from Flipboard. Tbh Les and good morning, or don't pay much attention to stuff dragged up from 20 years ago,I will judge him and his government by what they do, now they have the power . A key tactic it seems: “oh noes, so and so said this like a million years ago, they obviously have no capacity to chaaaaaange!” See Churchill, whose beliefs were drastically altered by war but who will forever be judged by the quotes from earlier in his life. Meanwhile George Floyd puts a gun to a pregnant woman’s belly during a home invasion and the left are creating murals to him purely because of the circumstances in which he died. One set of behaviours being policed by modern day morality and the others not. So much hypocrisy. That being said, in Johnson’s case his remarks in recent times have hardly put him in a stellar light. One wonders how the U.K. can be so avowedly anti-racist now and yet only a few short weeks ago give a man who has used such racist language a stonking majority. There was a vox-pop done just after the close of the election on election night where the BBC spoke to a black woman who had voted for Boris! I literally couldn’t get over it. Penny for her thoughts now....
|
|