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Post by William Wilson on Jun 29, 2020 6:01:58 GMT
It's what you said. You would like to punch them all in the mouth to wipe the smirks off of their faces. It's not my fault if you can't control your temper. Here you go, June 22nd, 5-31pm, you wrote; You really are pathetic. Why don't you find another forum to troll. First he was a prick. Now he`s pathetic. If he`s misquoted you, or misinterpreted what you said, can you not just point this out? No need for insults. Why should Jung go somewhere else? Edit: I think he`d make a fine politician. Pitt the Junger. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 6:48:58 GMT
You really are pathetic. Why don't you find another forum to troll. First he was a prick. Now he`s pathetic. If he`s misquoted you, or misinterpreted what you said, can you not just point this out? No need for insults. Why should Jung go somewhere else? Edit: I think he`d make a fine politician. Pitt the Junger. Because he invoked me in a conversation with someone else on a point they are debating using a remark that I made which had no relevance. Then says I lost my temper, as if it was a fact. It's trolling, pure and simple. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 7:06:08 GMT
What parts of capitalism work well for black people? It makes total sense they would want to see a system that promotes privilege wiped out. A society without privilege is basically communism- everyone is born equal. When you have nothing, taking what other people have and bringing them down to your level is a seductive ideology. There wouldn’t be anywhere near as much black collateral damage as there would be white if they could go the whole hog and destroy the British aristocracy ending generational elitism and privilege. That or just tweaking capitalism a bit, which would appeal more to an oppressed minority? Hmm.... A society without economic privilege perhaps but a society without racial privilege is a fairer and more just world. I also think a lot of capitalism actually works well for black people, black people benefit from economic growth, technological innovation and more consumer choice just like any other section of society. However obviously it's far from perfect as Black people face less social mobility and often form a large part of low paid, exploited workforces. If attempts are made to address this and an equal playing field where all races start from the same place with no impediments is established, then capitalism can be really advantageous to ethnic minorities. And this is the point. Our current form of capitalism with its hopelessly skewed income distribution outcomes doesn't work for too many of the population. As you say Axe, the BAME community are disproportionately represented in this group. Calling people who call this out as communists is as bad as loosely calling people rascists. For the BAME community add the degree of prejudice they are subject to in areas of our society then it's a double whammy. If you want evidence of this economic distortions, look at the impact of Covid by income band, look at the degree to which working people are forced to apply for state funded benefits, how many are forced to use food banks. Then overlay austerity policies invoked since 2010 and analyse who was affected the most. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 7:18:25 GMT
I checked out his Twitter and it was riddled with racsim and homophobia so no I didn't listen, just read the headline and your summary. Careful sharing hate speech online. Many of your types are being banned on social media. Homophobia? Are you sure? Here's the definition; dislike of or prejudice against gay people. He's gay himself, so in your opinion he has a dislike or prejudice against people who share his own sexual persuasion. OK then, if you say so. Care to share any of these 'racist' comments that he's made? You won't be in any trouble for 'outing' a racist. I've listened to, watched and read a lot of his work over the years, I can't recall any racist comment from him. I did a twitter search and that's the key words that came up. Racist and homophobe. Not my opinion as I have not interest in his type, attention seeking reactionaries of the Katie Hopkins mould. Not my fault if those terms are factually incorrect, you would need to address that yourself with the Twitter account holders. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 7:25:32 GMT
What parts of capitalism work well for black people? It makes total sense they would want to see a system that promotes privilege wiped out. A society without privilege is basically communism- everyone is born equal. When you have nothing, taking what other people have and bringing them down to your level is a seductive ideology. There wouldn’t be anywhere near as much black collateral damage as there would be white if they could go the whole hog and destroy the British aristocracy ending generational elitism and privilege. That or just tweaking capitalism a bit, which would appeal more to an oppressed minority? Hmm.... A society without economic privilege perhaps but a society without racial privilege is a fairer and more just world. I also think a lot of capitalism actually works well for black people, black people benefit from economic growth, technological innovation and more consumer choice just like any other section of society. However obviously it's far from perfect as Black people face less social mobility and often form a large part of low paid, exploited workforces. If attempts are made to address this and an equal playing field where all races start from the same place with no impediments is established, then capitalism can be really advantageous to ethnic minorities. Nice post. IMO you cannot have a level playing field under capitalism, only winners and losers, haves and have nots. Capitalism thrives by exploitation, as you can see all over the world, in the wealthiest and poorest communities. |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 29, 2020 8:01:05 GMT
Agreed. I’m not sure why BLM UK would want to end racism, white supremacy, imperialism etc. oh and capitalism - because, why not? What parts of capitalism work well for black people? It makes total sense they would want to see a system that promotes privilege wiped out. A society without privilege is basically communism- everyone is born equal. When you have nothing, taking what other people have and bringing them down to your level is a seductive ideology. There wouldn’t be anywhere near as much black collateral damage as there would be white if they could go the whole hog and destroy the British aristocracy ending generational elitism and privilege. That or just tweaking capitalism a bit, which would appeal more to an oppressed minority? Hmm.... I don't know, is the answer. I'm not actually saying capitalism is racist, I'm not sure whether an economic system can be racist? Rather its the people in control who make it racist, rather than capitalism itself. Sure can. They don't distinguish between forms / sectors / variants of capitalism, they just say capitalism, they then go on to mention the state structures that disproportionately harm black people. Had they have said something along the lines of; We're guided by a commitment to dismantle those elements of imperialism, capitalism etc then you would have a valid point. Here's the quote from their own page, for your ease of reference; I’ve got a lot of time for gassy but I’m really puzzled how he reads into that that it’s about selectively tweaking capitalist apparatus and not just pulling the whole lot down and replacing it with some as yet unknown system that either makes things equal or advantages black people. It seems pretty clear wording. Cheers fella, I can assure the respect is mutual. I don't think I'm alone in this though, Axegas seems to be on the same lines - and I'm sure Oldie & armchair agree  Like axe says, I just think the wording is crap. I don't really see any other evidence from BLM that they're anti-capitalism? Although if there is some, I'm sure Jung will show us. If we can see something more tangible that they're clearly anti-capitalism, then I'll agree to discredit that part of their argument, or in fact they should tweek it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 8:21:23 GMT
What parts of capitalism work well for black people? It makes total sense they would want to see a system that promotes privilege wiped out. A society without privilege is basically communism- everyone is born equal. When you have nothing, taking what other people have and bringing them down to your level is a seductive ideology. There wouldn’t be anywhere near as much black collateral damage as there would be white if they could go the whole hog and destroy the British aristocracy ending generational elitism and privilege. That or just tweaking capitalism a bit, which would appeal more to an oppressed minority? Hmm.... I don't know, is the answer. I'm not actually saying capitalism is racist, I'm not sure whether an economic system can be racist? Rather its the people in control who make it racist, rather than capitalism itself. I’ve got a lot of time for gassy but I’m really puzzled how he reads into that that it’s about selectively tweaking capitalist apparatus and not just pulling the whole lot down and replacing it with some as yet unknown system that either makes things equal or advantages black people. It seems pretty clear wording. Cheers fella, I can assure the respect is mutual. I don't think I'm alone in this though, Axegas seems to be on the same lines - and I'm sure Oldie & armchair agree Like axe says, I just think the wording is crap. I don't really see any other evidence from BLM that they're anti-capitalism? Although if there is some, I'm sure Jung will show us. If we can see something more tangible that they're clearly anti-capitalism, then I'll agree to discredit that part of their argument, or in fact they should tweek it. Some of that wording that's been highlighted appears to have been lifted from the Black Panther manifesto from back in the day. As people like Angela Davis are still around I guess it should surprise no one if the BLM movement reverted to people like her for advice. But I agree with Gassy, it's poor wording and allows, as has happened on here, certainly types (you know the sort) to divert from the main question. Just like introducing the Reading murders and promoting an argument over the victims sexuality. Pure diversionary tactics. Equality and Justice is a very strong demand, which any free thinking person would find hard to argue against. Hence why the neo liberal right (a tired term I accept) always attempt to argue about wording, health impacts of demos, or anything but discuss how we, as a society can do better at enabling Equality and Justice for all, regardless if skin colour and ethnicity. If we managed to do that then everybody wins. |
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Post by trevorgas on Jun 29, 2020 8:56:40 GMT
I don't know, is the answer. I'm not actually saying capitalism is racist, I'm not sure whether an economic system can be racist? Rather its the people in control who make it racist, rather than capitalism itself. Cheers fella, I can assure the respect is mutual. I don't think I'm alone in this though, Axegas seems to be on the same lines - and I'm sure Oldie & armchair agree Like axe says, I just think the wording is crap. I don't really see any other evidence from BLM that they're anti-capitalism? Although if there is some, I'm sure Jung will show us. If we can see something more tangible that they're clearly anti-capitalism, then I'll agree to discredit that part of their argument, or in fact they should tweek it. Some of that wording that's been highlighted appears to have been lifted from the Black Panther manifesto from back in the day. As people like Angela Davis are still around I guess it should surprise no one if the BLM movement reverted to people like her for advice. But I agree with Gassy, it's poor wording and allows, as has happened on here, certainly types (you know the sort) to divert from the main question. Just like introducing the Reading murders and promoting an argument over the victims sexuality. Pure diversionary tactics. Equality and Justice is a very strong demand, which any free thinking person would find hard to argue against. Hence why the neo liberal right (a tired term I accept) always attempt to argue about wording, health impacts of demos, or anything but discuss how we, as a society can do better at enabling Equality and Justice for all, regardless if skin colour and ethnicity. If we managed to do that then everybody wins. Very interesting debate,there has never been Equality and Justice for all ever since we climbed out of ponds. I go back to my point previously that you can legislate and change economic systems all you want what is almost impossible is to change Cultures,Human behaviour and how people think,without that being achieved and sustained everything else is but an adjunct. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:16:00 GMT
This thread has descended into some kind of hilarious mid-summer farce.
I'm not sure what our friends from the left want now, investment, which would presumably require funds generated via this disgusting capitalist patriarchy, or Communism.
But it's good to see at least 2 people arguing for zero economic privilege, so if they could please confirm that they have bequeathed all of their estate to BLM UK that would be super.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:23:31 GMT
First he was a prick. Now he`s pathetic. If he`s misquoted you, or misinterpreted what you said, can you not just point this out? No need for insults. Why should Jung go somewhere else? Edit: I think he`d make a fine politician. Pitt the Junger. Because he invoked me in a conversation with someone else on a point they are debating using a remark that I made which had no relevance. Then says I lost my temper, as if it was a fact. It's trolling, pure and simple. As William said, if I've misquoted what you said then demonstrate that and Ill apologise. For the 2nd time, I only used that quote from you as a measure of what appears to be acceptable dialogue on this forum, why is that a problem to you? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:26:07 GMT
This thread has descended into some kind of hilarious mid-summer farce. I'm not sure what our friends from the left want now, investment, which would presumably require funds generated via this disgusting capitalist patriarchy, or Communism. But it's good to see at least 2 people arguing for zero economic privilege, so if they could please confirm that they have bequeathed all of their estate to BLM UK that would be super. Another attempt to divert a perfectly fine discussion into a constraint defined by your own views. Why not justify your views within the confines of this debate rather than make patronising statements on the legitimate views of others. Or, just stop trolling. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 9:38:08 GMT
A society without economic privilege perhaps but a society without racial privilege is a fairer and more just world. I also think a lot of capitalism actually works well for black people, black people benefit from economic growth, technological innovation and more consumer choice just like any other section of society. However obviously it's far from perfect as Black people face less social mobility and often form a large part of low paid, exploited workforces. If attempts are made to address this and an equal playing field where all races start from the same place with no impediments is established, then capitalism can be really advantageous to ethnic minorities. And this is the point. Our current form of capitalism with its hopelessly skewed income distribution outcomes doesn't work for too many of the population. As you say Axe, the BAME community are disproportionately represented in this group. Calling people who call this out as communists is as bad as loosely calling people rascists. For the BAME community add the degree of prejudice they are subject to in areas of our society then it's a double whammy. If you want evidence of this economic distortions, look at the impact of Covid by income band, look at the degree to which working people are forced to apply for state funded benefits, how many are forced to use food banks. Then overlay austerity policies invoked since 2010 and analyse who was affected the most. The plot twist though is that ONS data suggests that in London Chinese workers earn 30% more than white workers and Indians 12% more and white boys on free school meals are the worst performers in schools nationwide currently. So if we whites ARE systematically racist we seem to be about as good at being systematically racist as our government is at dealing with pandemics. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 10:05:32 GMT
I don't know, is the answer. I'm not actually saying capitalism is racist, I'm not sure whether an economic system can be racist? Rather its the people in control who make it racist, rather than capitalism itself. Cheers fella, I can assure the respect is mutual. I don't think I'm alone in this though, Axegas seems to be on the same lines - and I'm sure Oldie & armchair agree Like axe says, I just think the wording is crap. I don't really see any other evidence from BLM that they're anti-capitalism? Although if there is some, I'm sure Jung will show us. If we can see something more tangible that they're clearly anti-capitalism, then I'll agree to discredit that part of their argument, or in fact they should tweek it. Some of that wording that's been highlighted appears to have been lifted from the Black Panther manifesto from back in the day. As people like Angela Davis are still around I guess it should surprise no one if the BLM movement reverted to people like her for advice. But I agree with Gassy, it's poor wording and allows, as has happened on here, certainly types (you know the sort) to divert from the main question. Just like introducing the Reading murders and promoting an argument over the victims sexuality. Pure diversionary tactics. Equality and Justice is a very strong demand, which any free thinking person would find hard to argue against. Hence why the neo liberal right (a tired term I accept) always attempt to argue about wording, health impacts of demos, or anything but discuss how we, as a society can do better at enabling Equality and Justice for all, regardless if skin colour and ethnicity. If we managed to do that then everybody wins. How can you say that the Reading murders are a diversion, the killing of 3 men, yet be motivated to comment on the 2 Met officers taking those pictures? Of course the pictures are bad, disgusting in fact, but for me, 3 murders are worse. Who exactly is engaged in diversion from the issues here. Now I'll lower myself to your level. The killer in Reading was not white, the victims were. There you go, that adds the exact amount of value that your comments on the skin colour of the London girls added, it's distasteful and unnececerry. Hope we can agree on that? You either agree with a groups aims or you don't, it's not as if taking down capitalism and viewing society as some form as oppressive patriarchy are trivial points that can just be ignored in the name of the cause. So no apology from me for finding that stuff a bit of a stumbling block. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 10:12:09 GMT
This thread has descended into some kind of hilarious mid-summer farce. I'm not sure what our friends from the left want now, investment, which would presumably require funds generated via this disgusting capitalist patriarchy, or Communism. But it's good to see at least 2 people arguing for zero economic privilege, so if they could please confirm that they have bequeathed all of their estate to BLM UK that would be super. Another attempt to divert a perfectly fine discussion into a constraint defined by your own views. Why not justify your views within the confines of this debate rather than make patronising statements on the legitimate views of others. Or, just stop trolling. Tell you what, you write in your chosen style, and I'll do likewise. How about that? I think I've made a valid point, 2 people are arguing for zero economic privilege, so in a light hearted way I'm demonstrating to them that would require them to hand over all of their possessions. For what it's worth, and you aren't going to like this, it's not me attempting to confine debate, it's you telling someone who has a different opinion to stop posting. So, it's actually you attempting to stifle conversation. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 29, 2020 10:17:02 GMT
And this is the point. Our current form of capitalism with its hopelessly skewed income distribution outcomes doesn't work for too many of the population. As you say Axe, the BAME community are disproportionately represented in this group. Calling people who call this out as communists is as bad as loosely calling people rascists. For the BAME community add the degree of prejudice they are subject to in areas of our society then it's a double whammy. If you want evidence of this economic distortions, look at the impact of Covid by income band, look at the degree to which working people are forced to apply for state funded benefits, how many are forced to use food banks. Then overlay austerity policies invoked since 2010 and analyse who was affected the most. The plot twist though is that ONS data suggests that in London Chinese workers earn 30% more than white workers and Indians 12% more and white boys on free school meals are the worst performers in schools nationwide currently. So if we whites ARE systematically racist we seem to be about as good at being systematically racist as our government is at dealing with pandemics. I feel sorry for you, gas365. I really do. Have you got nothing better to do with your time, than come on here talking sense? You wonder, ( well, I do ) what the families of those white boys on free school meals think, when they hear the phrase "white privilege" being bandied about ad infinitum. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 29, 2020 10:26:27 GMT
Another attempt to divert a perfectly fine discussion into a constraint defined by your own views. Why not justify your views within the confines of this debate rather than make patronising statements on the legitimate views of others. Or, just stop trolling. Tell you what, you write in your chosen style, and I'll do likewise. How about that? I think I've made a valid point, 2 people are arguing for zero economic privilege, so in a light hearted way I'm demonstrating to them that would require them to hand over all of their possessions. For what it's worth, and you aren't going to like this, it's not me attempting to confine debate, it's you telling someone who has a different opinion to stop posting. So, it's actually you attempting to stifle conversation. I was going to post something similar. Having been on this forum for many years, I`d say that Oldie has little to learn from anyone else, about constraints defined by their own views. Perhaps we`re all guilty of this. But he was the one who started the accusing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 10:33:17 GMT
Homophobia? Are you sure? Here's the definition; dislike of or prejudice against gay people. He's gay himself, so in your opinion he has a dislike or prejudice against people who share his own sexual persuasion. OK then, if you say so. Care to share any of these 'racist' comments that he's made? You won't be in any trouble for 'outing' a racist. I've listened to, watched and read a lot of his work over the years, I can't recall any racist comment from him. I did a twitter search and that's the key words that came up. Racist and homophobe. Not my opinion as I have not interest in his type, attention seeking reactionaries of the Katie Hopkins mould. Not my fault if those terms are factually incorrect, you would need to address that yourself with the Twitter account holders. No, I don't need to address anything as it's your claim. He's a gay man who argues against oppression and for gay rights, and you have no interest in 'his type'. So, in one breath I'm risking being banned from social media platforms for sharing a link to a video of a best selling author, yet it's OK for you to make accusations of racsim (sic) and homophobia based on unverified results from a Twitter keyword search. You'll have to forgive me for saying so, but your claims against Mr Murray sound very much like hate speech. |
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Post by axegas on Jun 29, 2020 10:35:29 GMT
A society without economic privilege perhaps but a society without racial privilege is a fairer and more just world. I also think a lot of capitalism actually works well for black people, black people benefit from economic growth, technological innovation and more consumer choice just like any other section of society. However obviously it's far from perfect as Black people face less social mobility and often form a large part of low paid, exploited workforces. If attempts are made to address this and an equal playing field where all races start from the same place with no impediments is established, then capitalism can be really advantageous to ethnic minorities. And this is the point. Our current form of capitalism with its hopelessly skewed income distribution outcomes doesn't work for too many of the population. As you say Axe, the BAME community are disproportionately represented in this group. Calling people who call this out as communists is as bad as loosely calling people rascists. For the BAME community add the degree of prejudice they are subject to in areas of our society then it's a double whammy. If you want evidence of this economic distortions, look at the impact of Covid by income band, look at the degree to which working people are forced to apply for state funded benefits, how many are forced to use food banks. Then overlay austerity policies invoked since 2010 and analyse who was affected the most. You don't have to be a communist to want to change the way we operate economically so it isn't set up to deprive BAME more than other groups. I think it's sad to see some trying to use red scare tactics as a way of distracting people from BLM core aims and discrediting it. Are they really that threatened by a movement promoting equality and an end to police brutality that they feel the need to resort to that? Good point about austerity, if it isn't bad enough that the BAME community have to face racial prejudice and discrimination, their heads are always the first on the chopping block when the economy is in a bad shape and a tory government feels the need to make cuts to public services. It's often perhaps forgotten or overlooked but the cut of 70% to the budget for youth services in the UK and the closure of 750 youth centres due to Austerity hurt BAME communities the most. Suddenly there's been a surge in knife crime and gang related violence because kids in poorer communities have almost no-one to set them on a better path. It's as you say, a double whammy due to the colour of their skin and the amount of money in their pocket. |
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Post by axegas on Jun 29, 2020 10:45:37 GMT
A society without economic privilege perhaps but a society without racial privilege is a fairer and more just world. I also think a lot of capitalism actually works well for black people, black people benefit from economic growth, technological innovation and more consumer choice just like any other section of society. However obviously it's far from perfect as Black people face less social mobility and often form a large part of low paid, exploited workforces. If attempts are made to address this and an equal playing field where all races start from the same place with no impediments is established, then capitalism can be really advantageous to ethnic minorities. Nice post. IMO you cannot have a level playing field under capitalism, only winners and losers, haves and have nots. Capitalism thrives by exploitation, as you can see all over the world, in the wealthiest and poorest communities. Yeah capitalism isn't perfect and nor will it ever be. It's just about making sure that of the numerous factors determining whether someone succeeds or fails under a capitalist system, race isn't one of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 11:10:12 GMT
The plot twist though is that ONS data suggests that in London Chinese workers earn 30% more than white workers and Indians 12% more and white boys on free school meals are the worst performers in schools nationwide currently. So if we whites ARE systematically racist we seem to be about as good at being systematically racist as our government is at dealing with pandemics. I feel sorry for you, gas365. I really do. Have you got nothing better to do with your time, than come on here talking sense? You wonder, ( well, I do ) what the families of those white boys on free school meals think, when they hear the phrase "white privilege" being bandied about ad infinitum. The white privilege stuff is AIDs, as is “Black Lives Matter”. It’s like these slogans are chosen specifically to cause as much division, rather than consensus, as possible- who benefits most from that division? I saw a good back and forth about white privilege at the weekend, the general take was that it’s supposed to be an incontrovertible truth: you may have many problems as a white person but your skin colour won’t be one. Okay I can kind of get behind that, it’s more of ephemeral and societal thing. But the idea that the Chinese and Indians are succeeding very nicely in this country suggests that white privilege might just be more propaganda that we are assuming is true because we hear about the prison population being mostly black etc. I’ve never argued that we have structural racism as it seems very likely...but now I wonder how much of this is self inflicted due to the influence of culture (let’s be fair, rap is not “happy clappy” music with an uplifting message is it?) and role models. Even then it’s not that simple because outside of London deprived white lads are suffering most... So this assumption of white privilege leads to what we are seeing at the moment it being used as tool to beat individuals with and it just doesn’t work and makes people angry. I find it very offensive that people assume to know my life’s history. I can assure you there are black kids out there who would not have wanted my childhood- white skin or no white skin. Imagine telling a survivor of the Balkans conflict that they have had white privilege all their lives! Strewth... But once again though, what does calling people racist or throwing the phrase “white privilege” about actually achieve apart from accrue virtual virtue signalling points that are redeemable on social media only? It’s like Dion Dublin brilliantly put it: “It’s just wearing t-shirts at the end of the day”. And more than that it turns the rationally minded moderate people off and alienates then from the cause. I’ve seen BAME people claim they don’t care who gets offended by their slogans and words and in some ways that’s noble but the facts are that we live in a majority white country and the people with the casting vote voted overwhelmingly for a hardcore Tory government last time out. If you want change you need to win these people over at the voting booth and you aren’t going to do it with potentially antagonistic sloganeering. As I’ve said from the beginning- who really benefits from all this division amongst the least privileged (yes black AND white ) strata of society? |
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