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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 9:25:22 GMT
And this ties in to my last post. Poverty is about both white and black, we should not be divided on this issue. Let’s improve the loves for everybody in the U.K. through social mobility- that’s the key issue here which is being lost among the noise of poor white people being asked to check their privilege. We are all in this together and the answer is not to vandalise our cenotaphs but to politically strategise to get more families out of poverty. Totally (personally I wouldn't hang on the over use of one phrase) But yes absolutely. Absolutely, but the problem is it is a phrase that is divisive and which also generates a negative emotional reaction and invalidates hard lives white people have lived. That's a big issue for BLM for me: away from the rioters I hear white people who have great sympathy for the suffering of black people but they are turned off by the constant call to privilege because the term has been 'weaponised' I stand far on the left, I want poor people of all skin colours to have better lives and better opportunities, I want an end to knife crime and I want food banks to be unnecessary so I should really be a lot more aligned with the BLM cause but for me the tone of the message is all wrong and I do feel that there is a certain hypocrisy in not highlighting the black on black crime in poor urban areas, both in the UK and in the US. I also don't think vandalism of private property is the answer. Fight the police as a symbol of the system, by all means but take the retaliation on the chin and don't complain about brutality when you encourage them to hit you. As said, on the whole I find gender and race relevant- obviously, but class is the biggest issue facing society. A classless society would theoretically solve feminism and racism. For god's sake let's all find common ground around what makes us human rather than tell others "You can't understand what it's like for us because privilege" - it creates an oppressor/oppressed relationship from the start rather than two people meeting as equals who both bleed the same colour blood. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 5, 2020 9:42:47 GMT
Totally (personally I wouldn't hang on the over use of one phrase) But yes absolutely. Absolutely, but the problem is it is a phrase that is divisive and which also generates a negative emotional reaction and invalidates hard lives white people have lived. That's a big issue for BLM for me: away from the rioters I hear white people who have great sympathy for the suffering of black people but they are turned off by the constant call to privilege because the term has been 'weaponised' I stand far on the left, I want poor people of all skin colours to have better lives and better opportunities, I want an end to knife crime and I want food banks to be unnecessary so I should really be a lot more aligned with the BLM cause but for me the tone of the message is all wrong and I do feel that there is a certain hypocrisy in not highlighting the black on black crime in poor urban areas, both in the UK and in the US. I also don't think vandalism of private property is the answer. Fight the police as a symbol of the system, by all means but take the retaliation on the chin and don't complain about brutality when you encourage them to hit you. As said, on the whole I find gender and race relevant- obviously, but class is the biggest issue facing society. A classless society would theoretically solve feminism and racism. For god's sake let's all find common ground around what makes us human rather than tell others "You can't understand what it's like for us because privilege" - it creates an oppressor/oppressed relationship from the start rather than two people meeting as equals who both bleed the same colour blood. A cynical person would say that we are encouraged to form 'little groups' to avoid 'united we stand'. Divide and rule? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 9:56:55 GMT
Absolutely, but the problem is it is a phrase that is divisive and which also generates a negative emotional reaction and invalidates hard lives white people have lived. That's a big issue for BLM for me: away from the rioters I hear white people who have great sympathy for the suffering of black people but they are turned off by the constant call to privilege because the term has been 'weaponised' I stand far on the left, I want poor people of all skin colours to have better lives and better opportunities, I want an end to knife crime and I want food banks to be unnecessary so I should really be a lot more aligned with the BLM cause but for me the tone of the message is all wrong and I do feel that there is a certain hypocrisy in not highlighting the black on black crime in poor urban areas, both in the UK and in the US. I also don't think vandalism of private property is the answer. Fight the police as a symbol of the system, by all means but take the retaliation on the chin and don't complain about brutality when you encourage them to hit you. As said, on the whole I find gender and race relevant- obviously, but class is the biggest issue facing society. A classless society would theoretically solve feminism and racism. For god's sake let's all find common ground around what makes us human rather than tell others "You can't understand what it's like for us because privilege" - it creates an oppressor/oppressed relationship from the start rather than two people meeting as equals who both bleed the same colour blood. A cynical person would say that we are encouraged to form 'little groups' to avoid 'united we stand'. Divide and rule? I said that above Al, in fact IIRC a decade ago I was doing some reading about feminism and gender war stuff before it had even caught on and gone 'mainstream' and there was some evidence out there that the 'big feminism hitters' back in those days (NOW, Southern Poverty Law Centre etc) were all being bank rolled by your old white men with grey hair types and it makes you wonder why these big pillars of the establishment would want to stoke the fires of a gender war and pit women against men...These people were certainly not the type you would immediately think of when wondering who profits most from women's rights. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 5, 2020 10:12:43 GMT
Some may say it's ironic but an example of people coming together is a large private company setting up in a poor area employing many people from all classes and raising each of those persons quality of life.
We all need each other.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 11:33:58 GMT
Some may say it's ironic but an example of people coming together is a large private company setting up in a poor area employing many people from all classes and raising each of those persons quality of life. We all need each other. Good example Al, and you're right - we ALL have a part to play in the solution |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 12:16:14 GMT
Some may say it's ironic but an example of people coming together is a large private company setting up in a poor area employing many people from all classes and raising each of those persons quality of life. We all need each other. Good example Al, and you're right - we ALL have a part to play in the solution That's a bit if a utopian vision though isn't it? Does that actually happen? You could ask the Indian villagers around the old Union Carbide factory there from the 80s, or the sweatshops in Bangladesh that feed the "low-cost" clothes shop, shops that supply the poorer end of population. Exactly how do the poor benefit from that? |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 5, 2020 12:27:53 GMT
Good example Al, and you're right - we ALL have a part to play in the solution That's a bit if a utopian vision though isn't it? Does that actually happen? You could ask the Indian villagers around the old Union Carbide factory there from the 80s, or the sweatshops in Bangladesh that feed the "low-cost" clothes shop, shops that supply the poorer end of population. Exactly how do the poor benefit from that? Would they be better off without it? Is there a better alternative, if there is surely they would choose that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 12:45:06 GMT
That's a bit if a utopian vision though isn't it? Does that actually happen? You could ask the Indian villagers around the old Union Carbide factory there from the 80s, or the sweatshops in Bangladesh that feed the "low-cost" clothes shop, shops that supply the poorer end of population. Exactly how do the poor benefit from that? Would they be better off without it? Is there a better alternative, if there is surely they would choose that? Union Carbide killed 100s with a chemical spill, 100s have died in fires in Dacca where the sweatshops reside. Capital always chases the cheapest cost base and if unfettered will drive costs so low that people die. Capital does not move to low cost areas for the benefit of local people. Hence the Utopian comment. |
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Post by althepirate on Jun 5, 2020 12:55:25 GMT
Would they be better off without it? Is there a better alternative, if there is surely they would choose that? Union Carbide killed 100s with a chemical spill, 100s have died in fires in Dacca where the sweatshops reside. Capital always chases the cheapest cost base and if unfettered will drive costs so low that people die. Capital does not move to low cost areas for the benefit of local people. Hence the Utopian comment. Of course I agree with you Oldie and I'm sure everyone on this thread does. However the world isn't a perfect place by far, it never has been and it never will be. That is why we have to face reality, not that we can't struggle to make changes, but those that we can't we simply have to accept it and do the best we can with it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 13:16:45 GMT
Would they be better off without it? Is there a better alternative, if there is surely they would choose that? Union Carbide killed 100s with a chemical spill, 100s have died in fires in Dacca where the sweatshops reside. Capital always chases the cheapest cost base and if unfettered will drive costs so low that people die. Capital does not move to low cost areas for the benefit of local people. Hence the Utopian comment. Perhaps given the subject of the thread Detroit is a better example... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 13:25:51 GMT
Union Carbide killed 100s with a chemical spill, 100s have died in fires in Dacca where the sweatshops reside. Capital always chases the cheapest cost base and if unfettered will drive costs so low that people die. Capital does not move to low cost areas for the benefit of local people. Hence the Utopian comment. Perhaps given the subject of the thread Detroit is a better example... Detroit, Bethlehem PA, Cleveland etc etc. Same in the UK |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 19:57:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 20:18:00 GMT
No thanks. History cannot be rewritten or airbrushed out of existence. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 20:48:17 GMT
No thanks. History cannot be rewritten or airbrushed out of existence. You can create history, put the statue in a museum, it's rightful place, and replace it with an image of unity. In the future people will either look back on us as a civilization that kept a statue of a racist slave trader, or a civilization who consigned him to history. Don't see any statues of Hitler around these days do you? |
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Post by inee on Jun 7, 2020 3:30:47 GMT
No thanks. History cannot be rewritten or airbrushed out of existence. You can create history, put the statue in a museum, it's rightful place, and replace it with an image of unity. In the future people will either look back on us as a civilization that kept a statue of a racist slave trader, or a civilization who consigned him to history. Don't see any statues of Hitler around these days do you? But that would be a cop out surely, as if you want the statue gone you surely have to remove every trace of stuff he funded or built in the world, as wouldn't that just be hypocrisy. You mention hitler do you avoid all brands that were associated with him before, during and after the war, i suspect not |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 6:04:37 GMT
You can create history, put the statue in a museum, it's rightful place, and replace it with an image of unity. In the future people will either look back on us as a civilization that kept a statue of a racist slave trader, or a civilization who consigned him to history. Don't see any statues of Hitler around these days do you? But that would be a cop out surely, as if you want the statue gone you surely have to remove every trace of stuff he funded or built in the world, as wouldn't that just be hypocrisy. You mention hitler do you avoid all brands that were associated with him before, during and after the war, i suspect not Perhaps everything he donated to Bristol should be wiped as well. Put it all up for sale and return it to his ancestors !! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 6:35:09 GMT
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 7, 2020 7:09:23 GMT
How ridiculous.
Fair play to him, but seriously, who calls for no police?
What a stupid question and a stupid position to take. Dumbed down mob mentality at it's best.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 7:14:28 GMT
How ridiculous. Fair play to him, but seriously, who calls for no police? What a stupid question and a stupid position to take. Dumbed down mob mentality at it's best. Yes that was my initial reaction. But then my brother has not been shot or killed by the police for no reason. The demand by these protesters sounds stupid, but is it an indication of how disenfranchised they have become? |
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Post by peterparker on Jun 7, 2020 7:22:28 GMT
Personally. I think it should stay, but be a reminder of the good and bad. I would rather see an accompaning statue of a black figure to compliment/Juxtapose it |
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