|
Post by matealotblue on Jul 8, 2020 12:21:19 GMT
I personally think, that if the US wants to get to grips with all of this, they should have more guns. Think they have gone beyond “Guns” as such when you see what are effectively assault rifles being touted around in a routine manner.......😱
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 12:33:51 GMT
I personally think, that if the US wants to get to grips with all of this, they should have more guns. Think they have gone beyond “Guns” as such when you see what are effectively assault rifles being touted around in a routine manner.......😱 There is a gun shortage over there, people who want to buy are having to be be put on a waiting list! USA is a tinder pot about to go boom.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 14:42:49 GMT
Quick question then. Are we to be afraid of expressing our views for fear of manipulation by some fascist foreign government? Taking that forward how unintelligent do you have to be to believe everything you read, listen to, on the internet without checking from differing sources? My point is quite the opposite in fact: everyone should be able to speak their mind AS LONG AS they are not hysterical and open themselves up to scrutiny and criticism of their views. The left, as of this writing, are engaged in hysterical censorship, “cancelling” (ugh what a f**king horrible term) and will not tolerate debate that challenges their ideas. There is a severe lack of moderation and critical thought and yet a critical mass of emotion and that is fertile ground for manipulation by countries that have a vested interest in the division of this country not to mention the powers that be on these very shores who get an armchair ride when the proletariat are at each other’s throats and have taken their eye off the sleight of hand at the top that leaves those at the bottom ever poorer. Tolerance of opinion, moderation and critical thought are in short supply. So What you are saying is everyone should speak their minds as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HYSTERICAL? So who defines "hysterical"? That sounds like pre censorship, like in China where everyone can discuss issues, as long as they don't criticize the Government. So BLM can say what they like as long as they don't keep on about murder by the police, as long as they don't keep on about the prejudice and bias they encounter, as long as they stop quoting history and what we in the west did. That will be alright then. So, evidence. On the weekend I discovered that 100% of the kids in inner City Baltimore, Maryland, are poor enough to qualify for state funded breakfast and lunch, everyday. 100%. Guess what, 90% of those kids are from ethnic Minority backgrounds. It must be their own fault, surely?? Really. Move along, nothing to see here, it's "hysteria". Wave the flag, it's a great Country Leicester and sweatshops anyone??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 14:52:48 GMT
My point is quite the opposite in fact: everyone should be able to speak their mind AS LONG AS they are not hysterical and open themselves up to scrutiny and criticism of their views. The left, as of this writing, are engaged in hysterical censorship, “cancelling” (ugh what a f**king horrible term) and will not tolerate debate that challenges their ideas. There is a severe lack of moderation and critical thought and yet a critical mass of emotion and that is fertile ground for manipulation by countries that have a vested interest in the division of this country not to mention the powers that be on these very shores who get an armchair ride when the proletariat are at each other’s throats and have taken their eye off the sleight of hand at the top that leaves those at the bottom ever poorer. Tolerance of opinion, moderation and critical thought are in short supply. So What you are saying is everyone should speak their minds as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HYSTERICAL? So who defines "hysterical"? That sounds like pre censorship, like in China where everyone can discuss issues, as long as they don't criticize the Government. So BLM can say what they like as long as they don't keep on about murder by the police, as long as they don't keep on about the prejudice and bias they encounter, as long as they stop quoting history and what we in the west did. That will be alright then. So, evidence. On the weekend I discovered that 100% of the kids in inner City Baltimore, Maryland, are poor enough to qualify for state funded breakfast and lunch, everyday. 100%. Guess what, 90% of those kids are from ethnic Minority backgrounds. It must be their own fault, surely?? Really. Move along, nothing to see here, it's "hysteria". Wave the flag, it's a great Country Leicester and sweatshops anyone?? Hysterical as in they try and silence everyone else with shaming/cancelling/blocking and deleting because there are those who wish to critique their viewpoint and ideas. Some of the far left come across like they have the monopoly on moral absolutism, solipsism is their calling card: they are far left ergo they are morally “right” because the far left IS morally right because it is the side of social justice and therefore can’t be wrong, so if you aren’t with us you are against us, etc, etc. That sort of hysteria. And it is hysterical because it is highly emotive and lacking in rationality. We should all be able to discuss our viewpoints as rational adults and not object to having our ideas challenged much less believe our viewpoint is the absolute objective truth or face the wrath of the baying mob because we believe there are better ways to solve these problems than trite nonsense for show like taking a knee or changing a profile picture. Have you seen that some public figures have signed an open letter about the restriction of debate? That’s the sign of a hysterical element in our culture that wants to silence open discussion of sensitive topics. It’s a slippery slope and the beginning of the end of rationality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 14:57:01 GMT
So What you are saying is everyone should speak their minds as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HYSTERICAL? So who defines "hysterical"? That sounds like pre censorship, like in China where everyone can discuss issues, as long as they don't criticize the Government. So BLM can say what they like as long as they don't keep on about murder by the police, as long as they don't keep on about the prejudice and bias they encounter, as long as they stop quoting history and what we in the west did. That will be alright then. So, evidence. On the weekend I discovered that 100% of the kids in inner City Baltimore, Maryland, are poor enough to qualify for state funded breakfast and lunch, everyday. 100%. Guess what, 90% of those kids are from ethnic Minority backgrounds. It must be their own fault, surely?? Really. Move along, nothing to see here, it's "hysteria". Wave the flag, it's a great Country Leicester and sweatshops anyone?? Hysterical as in they try and silence everyone else with shaming/cancelling/blocking and deleting because there are those who wish to critique their viewpoint and ideas. Some of the far left come across like they have the monopoly on moral absolutism, solipsism is their calling card: they are far left ergo they are morally “right” because the far left IS morally right because it is the side of social justice and therefore can’t be wrong, so if you aren’t with us you are against us, etc, etc. That sort of hysteria. And it is hysterical because it is highly emotive and lacking in rationality. We should all be able to discuss our viewpoints as rational adults and not object to having our ideas challenged much less believe our viewpoint is the absolute objective truth or face the wrath of the baying mob because we believe there are better ways to solve these problems than trite nonsense for show like taking a knee or changing a profile picture. I wouldn't disagree with the accusation of "absolutism" at the extremes of politics or indeed social activism. But where is the evidence that this is actually happening in any meaningful way?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:04:25 GMT
Hysterical as in they try and silence everyone else with shaming/cancelling/blocking and deleting because there are those who wish to critique their viewpoint and ideas. Some of the far left come across like they have the monopoly on moral absolutism, solipsism is their calling card: they are far left ergo they are morally “right” because the far left IS morally right because it is the side of social justice and therefore can’t be wrong, so if you aren’t with us you are against us, etc, etc. That sort of hysteria. And it is hysterical because it is highly emotive and lacking in rationality. We should all be able to discuss our viewpoints as rational adults and not object to having our ideas challenged much less believe our viewpoint is the absolute objective truth or face the wrath of the baying mob because we believe there are better ways to solve these problems than trite nonsense for show like taking a knee or changing a profile picture. I wouldn't disagree with the accusation of "absolutism" at the extremes of politics or indeed social activism. But where is the evidence that this is actually happening in any meaningful way? See my edit above- some public figures are obviously concerned about the way we are headed. Plus you see it on social media all the time, hysterical lefties shouting “SILENCE IS VIOLENCE” followed by blocking and deleting former friends because that friend has kept their own counsel and not indulged in the “performative concern” that is demanded of them such as changing their profile pic. The left is coalescing into a hysterical mob that is demanding sheep behaviour or you will feel their wrath. I used to consider myself left wing but now I feel very much a moderate in the centre trying to resist the propaganda on both sides and as John Cleese pointed out in that video Al posted a while back the only thing the moderate can guarantee is that they are hated by both extremes for trying to have their own mind.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:08:21 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:08:39 GMT
I wouldn't disagree with the accusation of "absolutism" at the extremes of politics or indeed social activism. But where is the evidence that this is actually happening in any meaningful way? See my edit above- some public figures are obviously concerned about the way we are headed. Plus you see it on social media all the time, hysterical lefties shouting “SILENCE IS VIOLENCE” followed by blocking and deleting former friends because that friend has kept their own counsel and not indulged in the “performative concern” that is demanded of them such as changing their profile pic. The left is coalescing into a hysterical mob that is demanding sheep behaviour or you will feel their wrath. I used to consider myself left wing but now I feel very much a moderate in the centre trying to resist the propaganda on both sides and as John Cleese pointed out in that video Al posted a while back the only thing the moderate can guarantee is that they are hated by both extremes for trying to have their own mind. To be honest 365 I don't find any of that to be in any way meaningful in terms of a critique of BLM generally or in the space of demanding equality and justice. At best it's a side issue acted out by kids, either actual or intellectually.
|
|
|
Post by scoobydoogas on Jul 8, 2020 15:11:17 GMT
So What you are saying is everyone should speak their minds as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HYSTERICAL? So who defines "hysterical"? That sounds like pre censorship, like in China where everyone can discuss issues, as long as they don't criticize the Government. So BLM can say what they like as long as they don't keep on about murder by the police, as long as they don't keep on about the prejudice and bias they encounter, as long as they stop quoting history and what we in the west did. That will be alright then. So, evidence. On the weekend I discovered that 100% of the kids in inner City Baltimore, Maryland, are poor enough to qualify for state funded breakfast and lunch, everyday. 100%. Guess what, 90% of those kids are from ethnic Minority backgrounds. It must be their own fault, surely?? Really. Move along, nothing to see here, it's "hysteria". Wave the flag, it's a great Country Leicester and sweatshops anyone?? Hysterical as in they try and silence everyone else with shaming/cancelling/blocking and deleting because there are those who wish to critique their viewpoint and ideas. Some of the far left come across like they have the monopoly on moral absolutism, solipsism is their calling card: they are far left ergo they are morally “right” because the far left IS morally right because it is the side of social justice and therefore can’t be wrong, so if you aren’t with us you are against us, etc, etc. That sort of hysteria. And it is hysterical because it is highly emotive and lacking in rationality. We should all be able to discuss our viewpoints as rational adults and not object to having our ideas challenged much less believe our viewpoint is the absolute objective truth or face the wrath of the baying mob because we believe there are better ways to solve these problems than trite nonsense for show like taking a knee or changing a profile picture. Have you seen that some public figures have signed an open letter about the restriction of debate? That’s the sign of a hysterical element in our culture that wants to silence open discussion of sensitive topics. It’s a slippery slope and the beginning of the end of rationality. This is the first time I have liked a post of yours but ..... Exactly this.
You have to wonder what the far left are afraid of to cause them to have to censor opposing views. Maybe the views of the far left aren't actually that robust.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:12:25 GMT
See my edit above- some public figures are obviously concerned about the way we are headed. Plus you see it on social media all the time, hysterical lefties shouting “SILENCE IS VIOLENCE” followed by blocking and deleting former friends because that friend has kept their own counsel and not indulged in the “performative concern” that is demanded of them such as changing their profile pic. The left is coalescing into a hysterical mob that is demanding sheep behaviour or you will feel their wrath. I used to consider myself left wing but now I feel very much a moderate in the centre trying to resist the propaganda on both sides and as John Cleese pointed out in that video Al posted a while back the only thing the moderate can guarantee is that they are hated by both extremes for trying to have their own mind. To be honest 365 I don't find any of that to be in any way meaningful in terms of a critique of BLM generally or in the space of demanding equality and justice. At best it's a side issue acted out by kids, either actual or intellectually. That’s as maybe, but what if these kids end up in a position of real influence? All of a sudden their penchant for being lead by their emotions rather than their critical thought becomes very dangerous indeed and they cannot be dismissed out of hand as an irrelevance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:15:30 GMT
A case in point: “And on social media, the reaction was swift, with some heaping ridicule on the letter’s signatories — who include cultural luminaries like Margaret Atwood, Bill T. Jones and Wynton Marsalis, along with journalists and academics — for thin-skinnedness, privilege and, as one person put it, fear of loss of “relevance.”More shaming language rather than engage in any sort of counter critique. The far left are almost becoming a parody of themselves.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:26:11 GMT
A case in point: “And on social media, the reaction was swift, with some heaping ridicule on the letter’s signatories — who include cultural luminaries like Margaret Atwood, Bill T. Jones and Wynton Marsalis, along with journalists and academics — for thin-skinnedness, privilege and, as one person put it, fear of loss of “relevance.”More shaming language rather than engage in any sort of counter critique. The far left are almost becoming a parody of themselves. And From the same discussion you linked to "Okay, I did not sign THE LETTER when I was asked 9 days ago,” Richard Kim, the enterprise director of HuffPost, said on Twitter, “because I could see in 90 seconds that it was fatuous, self-important drivel that would only troll the people it allegedly was trying to reach — and I said as much.” The key in all this is that there is a healthy debate on free speech and relative absolutism in the States and it has been going on for decades. Allan Bloom wrote about it in 1987. "The Closing of the American Mind: How Higher Education Has Failed Democracy and Impoverished the Souls of Today's Students is a 1987 book by the philosopher Allan Bloom, in which the author criticizes the "openness" of relativism, in academia and society in general, as leading paradoxically to the great "closing" referenced in the book's title. In Bloom's view, "openness" and absolute understanding undermine critical thinking and eliminate the "point of view" that defines cultures. The book became an unexpected best seller, eventually selling close to half a million copies in hardback, but drew divided reactions from reviewers." I bought it then and still have it. You can borrow it if you want to. This is nothing new.
|
|
|
Post by William Wilson on Jul 9, 2020 6:31:49 GMT
He`s an intelligent and thoughtful individual. Your remark does you no credit. I respect your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. Free to remark as I choose. Without fear of attack on my character (Which, in my case, is de rigueur on here in the absence of substantiated debate). True `nuff. Absolutely you`re entitled to your opinion, and I withdraw my "doing you no credit" remark. I was just surprised that you found his views comedic. I`ve always thought he was quite moderate and thoughtful. But, of course, that`s just my opinion. What is it about his views that you find laughable?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 7:21:51 GMT
I respect your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. Free to remark as I choose. Without fear of attack on my character (Which, in my case, is de rigueur on here in the absence of substantiated debate). True `nuff. Absolutely you`re entitled to your opinion, and I withdraw my "doing you no credit" remark. I was just surprised that you found his views comedic. I`ve always thought he was quite moderate and thoughtful. But, of course, that`s just my opinion. What is it about his views that you find laughable? For example "These protestors are using the actions of a policeman in Minnesota (currently charged with murder and awaiting trial) to push for the erasure of British history and culture" Really? Who is pushing for the erasure of history? No, BLM are pushing for the recognition of the reality of our history, not the single lense view taught in our education. How can "culture" be erased (other than genocide)? It's just meaningless nonsense playing to the fears of the ill informed. So there you have it, a guy privileged with private education at Eton, Oxbridge tertiary, spouting preening effete nonsense. = Laughable
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 9:29:02 GMT
I think that Oldie got that quote from the article on this link. But if you take 5 mins to read the entire thing, there's context, and I agree with the thrust of the piece by Murray. healthyfrog.readsector.com/2020/06/14/douglas-murray-anarchy-is-breaking-out-where-are-the-brakes-on-this-thing-does-anyone-know/But never take your eye off of the reality of what we are up against here, as Oldie himself as acknowledged, BLM is a self-proclaimed Marxist organisation. He doesn't need me to explain the connection between Marxism and Communism, with the body count being measured in the hundreds of millions. No debate to be had with these lunatics and anybody who defends them to any degree exposes either their own ideology or lack of understanding of what underpins BLM as an organisation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 10:43:16 GMT
But that is what he said and actually, regardless of any intelligible context, it's utter nonsense.
So let's revert to attacking their so called "Marxist" credentials and the results of communism... diversionary nonsense of equal value...zero. Typical right wing trope to avoid the real issues. This perpetual nonsense, you do have to start wondering why? Is it stupidity, ignorance or something else? I am not just referring to people who quote Murray.
|
|
|
Post by William Wilson on Jul 9, 2020 10:55:20 GMT
True `nuff. Absolutely you`re entitled to your opinion, and I withdraw my "doing you no credit" remark. I was just surprised that you found his views comedic. I`ve always thought he was quite moderate and thoughtful. But, of course, that`s just my opinion. What is it about his views that you find laughable? For example "These protestors are using the actions of a policeman in Minnesota (currently charged with murder and awaiting trial) to push for the erasure of British history and culture" Really? Who is pushing for the erasure of history? No, BLM are pushing for the recognition of the reality of our history, not the single lense view taught in our education. How can "culture" be erased (other than genocide)? It's just meaningless nonsense playing to the fears of the ill informed. So there you have it, a guy privileged with private education at Eton, Oxbridge tertiary, spouting preening effete nonsense. = Laughable Your opinion. It`s all opinions. History can be erased easily enough. One narrative replaced with another. It seems to me, that`s pretty much what`s being attempted at the moment. I wouldn`t disagree with DM on that. What single lens view is taught in our education system? That slavery was somehow good? It`s a long long time since my arse was perched on a school chair, but even all those years ago we were taught about the abhorrence of it all. Freedom of speech is a large part of our culture. 150 writers, academics etc, have just published an open letter, deploring the fact that ( in their view ) it`s fast being erased. Something I`m sure DM would agree with. Now, they may be right, they may not, but laughable it ain`t. Not to me. You seem to regard anyone with any degree of privilege ( birth, education, whatever ) with the same attitude that Stalin viewed the Kulaks. Why is that?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:04:05 GMT
But my side of the debate didn't start this argument with BLM, and they are front and centre of the debate.
Had BLM stepped forward and said, 'listen guys, black lives matter, we know that white lives matter too, and we aren't going to get drawn into playing with statistics, there are two numbers, both are painful, both destroy lives, one is the raw fact that US Police kill more white folk than black, but please recognise also that as a percentage of population, more black people are killed by Police, and we are happy to hold that parallel conversation, but right now, can we please discuss black issues, and yes, we'll talk about black-on-black crime, we won't just frame the topic in terms of racism, and yes we'll assist with rooting out and bringing to justice BLM US members who have targeted and murdered Police officers' then there would be a discussion to be had, but right now, that's not where we are.
Where we are is that Patrisse Cullors and Alicia Garzaare are self-proclaimed Marxists who are quoted as saying ''We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular, we’re trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on ideological theories.”
That's no starting point for engagement and reconciliation with an establishment that you claim is set against you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:06:47 GMT
For example "These protestors are using the actions of a policeman in Minnesota (currently charged with murder and awaiting trial) to push for the erasure of British history and culture" Really? Who is pushing for the erasure of history? No, BLM are pushing for the recognition of the reality of our history, not the single lense view taught in our education. How can "culture" be erased (other than genocide)? It's just meaningless nonsense playing to the fears of the ill informed. So there you have it, a guy privileged with private education at Eton, Oxbridge tertiary, spouting preening effete nonsense. = Laughable Your opinion. It`s all opinions. History can be erased easily enough. One narrative replaced with another. It seems to me, that`s pretty much what`s being attempted at the moment. I wouldn`t disagree with DM on that. What single lens view is taught in our education system? That slavery was somehow good? It`s a long long time since my arse was perched on a school chair, but even all those years ago we were taught about the abhorrence of it all. Freedom of speech is a large part of our culture. 150 writers, academics etc, have just published an open letter, deploring the fact that ( in their view ) it`s fast being erased. Something I`m sure DM would agree with. Now, they may be right, they may not, but laughable it ain`t. Not to me. You seem to regard anyone with any degree of privilege ( birth, education, whatever ) with the same attitude that Stalin viewed the Kulaks. Why is that? It's exactly what's being attempted William, and of course the people doing it and agreeing with it aren't going to admit it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 12:12:49 GMT
|
|