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Post by baggins on Jul 9, 2020 12:52:05 GMT
Less than 30% of the US prison population is white. Not sure what that means as far as this thread is concerned but thought I'd chuck it in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 13:16:14 GMT
Less than 30% of the US prison population is white. Not sure what that means as far as this thread is concerned but thought I'd chuck it in. It's part of the whole mess that needs sorting out. Black people are 13% of the US population but commit over 50% of crime. Of course it's just lazy and unhelpful to point and shout 'racism'. I have a study that looks at arrest / charge / conviction etc rates by ethnicity if you would like to take a look?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 13:47:04 GMT
For example "These protestors are using the actions of a policeman in Minnesota (currently charged with murder and awaiting trial) to push for the erasure of British history and culture" Really? Who is pushing for the erasure of history? No, BLM are pushing for the recognition of the reality of our history, not the single lense view taught in our education. How can "culture" be erased (other than genocide)? It's just meaningless nonsense playing to the fears of the ill informed. So there you have it, a guy privileged with private education at Eton, Oxbridge tertiary, spouting preening effete nonsense. = Laughable Your opinion. It`s all opinions. History can be erased easily enough. One narrative replaced with another. It seems to me, that`s pretty much what`s being attempted at the moment. I wouldn`t disagree with DM on that. What single lens view is taught in our education system? That slavery was somehow good? It`s a long long time since my arse was perched on a school chair, but even all those years ago we were taught about the abhorrence of it all. Freedom of speech is a large part of our culture. 150 writers, academics etc, have just published an open letter, deploring the fact that ( in their view ) it`s fast being erased. Something I`m sure DM would agree with. Now, they may be right, they may not, but laughable it ain`t. Not to me. You seem to regard anyone with any degree of privilege ( birth, education, whatever ) with the same attitude that Stalin viewed the Kulaks. Why is that? Good shout. On your last point I absolutely do not. But, given a level of access to a high level of intellectual teaching, given the historical facts I struggle with the narrative that people like Murray promote. On history. You say that history can be erased easily enough. But how, that's just a throw away remark (in my opinion). You can erase knowledge, by denying history and not teaching it. Or teaching a history that covers half a story. It's absolutely not enough to teach kids that slavery was wrong, that's mom, pop and apple pie. To teach it accurately you have to teach the impacts on the countries, territories, on its people's and the wealth gain displayed in Bristol (for eg) as a result. Cause and effect if you like. I do not know about you, but none of that was taught. In my time and certainly not in my kids time (90s). That's what movements like BLM are trying to address (notwithstanding elements of silliness) and people like Murray are trying to portray as a subversion of our history. What he means of course is a subversion of the British elite's version of history.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 13:57:42 GMT
Less than 30% of the US prison population is white. Not sure what that means as far as this thread is concerned but thought I'd chuck it in. To repeat a point In Baltimore, Maryland, 100% of the kids in the inner city are so poor that they qualify for free breakfast and lunch. 100%. 90% of that population are ethnic minorities. Is it to anyone's surprise then that social cohesion breaks down? That with a loss of hope that criminality increases? Not claiming it's right, but it's understandable. As a result the States does not attack the root cause, they just lock up the adults, cover their eyes and hope it all goes away. It has not and it will not. Now add in to that poisonous mix a degree of prejudice and bias.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 14:06:57 GMT
What he means is being told what to think about history and how it must be viewed.
The Guardian are typical in this respect, founded, in part, with money from slave labour, in 2011 excuse the views of their founder, who opposed Lincoln, just let that sink in, founded with funds from a man who was on the wrong side of the Civil War, as being 'of his time' yet condemn Colston outright without even a suggestion that he may hold different opinions today.
Anybody who can't understand why this isn't a level debating field is either dishonest, or dare I say it, a bit dim.
Now, let's move along shall we. What should we do about the Romans, or maybe the Ottoman Empire? Should I go picket the local Turkish owned kebab shop or Pizza take away?
Some people really need to get a grip.
Elements of silliness? The body count attributable to communism runs in to the hundreds of millions. Elements of silliness! Quite incredible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 14:16:16 GMT
Less than 30% of the US prison population is white. Not sure what that means as far as this thread is concerned but thought I'd chuck it in. Yeah if I was a cynic I'd say the US prison system is state sponsored racial control. Some of the things I've read about are horrifying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 14:35:24 GMT
This argument is broadly the same for Hispanics if all we are going to do is look at prison population, but it also corelates, broadly, to population as well.
Hispanics as a % of population, roughly 16%, as a % of prison population, roughly 1/3rd.
Yet here we are on page 75 and the champions of equality are silent on this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 15:19:45 GMT
I see holding a view is now, again, being characterised as "dim" Some people cannot help themselves can they. On the teaching, acceptance of history, which part of the to BLM narrative is incorrect? Maybe we can start from that point? But we get the old hogwash about Greco / Roman history.
Let's then, as an example, digress from the Afro American experience and consider the impact of western imperialism in the middle East. Most of it is post the era of slavery anyway, but speaks to the narrative of impoverishing nations, or in this case geographic areas, for the enrichment of ourselves.
It's the same thing, different product.
Anyone? Or shall we stick to the denial of history in regard to the to Afro to American community?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 15:46:29 GMT
Whilst pondering the debate us there any evidence that BLM supporters have attacked MPs or their offices / staff? I don't know, but this has just come to light.
Dawn Butler's office forced to close
"My staff have been attacked in the office, verbally assaulted coming and going from work, bricks have been thrown through the windows and the frontage has been smashed," she said in a statement explaining the office closure.
"I have had to work extensively with police and security staff to simply try and create a safe working environment for my employees. Many of these incidents were not made public in order to not encourage copycat attacks."
Such nice people on the extremes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 15:54:12 GMT
What I actually said, and what you appear to be misrepresenting, is that anybody who won't or can't recognise how the debate isn't being held on a level playing field is either being dishonest or is too dim to recognise it.
Stop making things up.
No, let's start from the point of, should we engage with a group who openly promote a Communist agenda. You've totally ignored those hundreds of millions of bodies.
You try to promote BLM as a legitimate organisation if that rocks your boat, but don't be surprised if you get challenged for doing so.
It matters not if they've hung their Marxist agenda around a worthy slogan.
We agree, equality of opportunity, but that's not what BLM, either here or USA want.
BTW, I trust that you found time to listen to Mr Riley and now have a clearer understanding of why working towards equality of outcome is a flawed concept?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 16:03:00 GMT
Whilst pondering the debate us there any evidence that BLM supporters have attacked MPs or their offices / staff? I don't know, but this has just come to light. Dawn Butler's office forced to close "My staff have been attacked in the office, verbally assaulted coming and going from work, bricks have been thrown through the windows and the frontage has been smashed," she said in a statement explaining the office closure. "I have had to work extensively with police and security staff to simply try and create a safe working environment for my employees. Many of these incidents were not made public in order to not encourage copycat attacks." Such nice people on the extremes. Yes, horrible morons surface in politics, all over the place. Remember the 'remain' louts who jeered at Reece-Mogg's 12 year old Son that he was a Nazi, traitor and utter prick? He needed a Police escort to the car. That's your side of that debate for you if this is the game you want to play.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 16:10:43 GMT
Fact check.
Oldie said;
In Baltimore, where my Son lives and works, everybody receives free breakfast and lunch at school, regardless of income level.
Stop misrepresenting the facts.
I stopped taking you seriously long ago, but others may actually form opinions based on the misinformation you circulate.
BTW, I approve of this policy as it removes any stigma that may surround a child receiving free meals. Well done Baltimore.
Edit.
Here we go, some more detail on Baltimore, just to give an idea of how it's administered, no questions asked, no forms, no English required, schools refunded 100% for cost of every meal served.
Brilliant, inclusive policy.
I just don't understand with this, which completely removes social / racial / class barriers, anybody would want to misrepresent the scheme and frame it purely in terms of race. This is exactly what's needed, one community.
Brilliant, more of this please and less talk of what divides us.
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Post by trevorgas on Jul 9, 2020 17:02:23 GMT
If you get the chance have a look at Michael Holdings impassioned speech at the cricket on Sky today. Not the sort of thing normally sedate cricket coverage gets into. Brilliant!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 18:40:52 GMT
Fact check. Oldie said; In Baltimore, where my Son lives and works, everybody receives free breakfast and lunch at school, regardless of income level. Stop misrepresenting the facts. I stopped taking you seriously long ago, but others may actually form opinions based on the misinformation you circulate. BTW, I approve of this policy as it removes any stigma that may surround a child receiving free meals. Well done Baltimore. Edit. Here we go, some more detail on Baltimore, just to give an idea of how it's administered, no questions asked, no forms, no English required, schools refunded 100% for cost of every meal served. Brilliant, inclusive policy. I just don't understand with this, which completely removes social / racial / class barriers, anybody would want to misrepresent the scheme and frame it purely in terms of race. This is exactly what's needed, one community. Brilliant, more of this please and less talk of what divides us. Fact check. These are the latest meals programme for the State of Maryland. "BALTIMORE – The Maryland State Department of Education (MSDE) has announced revised Income Eligibility Guidelines (IEGs) for free and reduced-price school meals. The guidelines are set by the federal government and adopted by MSDE. The IEGs are used to determine eligibility for free or reduced-price meals in child nutrition programs for the period of July 1, 2020 through June 30, 2021. The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) annual adjustments to the IEGs are required by Section 9 of the Richard B. Russell National School Lunch Act. The guidelines are intended to directly benefit those children most in need and are revised annually to account for changes in the Consumer Price Index. The IEGs were established by multiplying the 2020 federal income poverty guidelines by 130 percent to determine the household income levels for free meal eligibility and by 185 percent for the reduced-price meal eligibility income levels. The income levels are rounded upward to the next whole dollar. Household size and income is the most common way to determine eligibility. For example, a child from a family of four is eligible for free school meals if the household’s current annual income is below $34,060. If the family’s annual income is between $34,061 and $48,470, the child is eligible for reduced-price meals. Meal Benefit Applications will be available at the beginning of the school year. Parents and guardians should complete applications in their entirety and submit it to the school; schools cannot approve incomplete applications. United States citizenship is not required to be eligible for free or reduced-price meals. Schools will inform households whether children qualify for free or reduced-price meals. Parents and guardians may speak with school officials concerning disagreement with the school’s decision or appeal the decision and request a hearing with the school district’s administrators. Children enrolled in Head Start, Even Start, certified as homeless, migrant, runaway, foster, or children living in households that receive Food Supplement Program (FSP) or Temporary Cash Assistance (TCA) benefits are eligible for free meals and do not need to fill out an application. Some FSP and TCA households will receive a letter from the school informing them that children in the household are eligible for free meals. FSP and TCA households that do not receive a letter by the beginning of the school year should fill out an application. Other children who may be eligible for free or reduced-price meals include children in households participating in the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC). Parents and guardians of these children should complete an application. Parents and guardians may reapply at any time during the school year and are encouraged to do so if the household size increases, parents and guardians become unemployed, income decreases, or the household qualifies for FSP or TCA. School Meals includes: School Breakfast Program, National School Lunch Program, After-School Care Snack component, and Special Milk Program. The School Meals programs are administered in Maryland by the MSDE, and must meet nutrition requirements set by the USDA." This paragraph stood out for me "Children enrolled in Head Start, Even Start, certified as homeless, migrant, runaway, foster, or children living in households that receive Food Supplement Program (FSP) or Temporary Cash Assistance (TCA) benefits are eligible for free meals and do not need to fill out an application. Some FSP and TCA households will receive a letter from the school informing them that children in the household are eligible for free meals." My information from a company performing pro bono work for the Baltimore administration is that that the incidence of poverty is so high, that the adminstration decided to enrol every one rather than demand they apply individually. So, contrary to the contention that there is a general free meal provision, there is not, as the State guidelines I have posted up confirm. It's just that the local government conceded that in reality almost everyone qualifies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 18:57:03 GMT
Fact check. Oldie said; In Baltimore, where my Son lives and works, everybody receives free breakfast and lunch at school, regardless of income level. Stop misrepresenting the facts. I stopped taking you seriously long ago, but others may actually form opinions based on the misinformation you circulate. BTW, I approve of this policy as it removes any stigma that may surround a child receiving free meals. Well done Baltimore. Edit. Here we go, some more detail on Baltimore, just to give an idea of how it's administered, no questions asked, no forms, no English required, schools refunded 100% for cost of every meal served. Brilliant, inclusive policy. I just don't understand with this, which completely removes social / racial / class barriers, anybody would want to misrepresent the scheme and frame it purely in terms of race. This is exactly what's needed, one community. Brilliant, more of this please and less talk of what divides us. Fact check. These are the latest meals programme for the State of Maryland. "BALTIMORE – The Maryland State Department of Education (MSDE) has announced revised Income Eligibility Guidelines (IEGs) for free and reduced-price school meals. The guidelines are set by the federal government and adopted by MSDE. The IEGs are used to determine eligibility for free or reduced-price meals in child nutrition programs for the period of July 1, 2020 through June 30, 2021. The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) annual adjustments to the IEGs are required by Section 9 of the Richard B. Russell National School Lunch Act. The guidelines are intended to directly benefit those children most in need and are revised annually to account for changes in the Consumer Price Index. The IEGs were established by multiplying the 2020 federal income poverty guidelines by 130 percent to determine the household income levels for free meal eligibility and by 185 percent for the reduced-price meal eligibility income levels. The income levels are rounded upward to the next whole dollar. Household size and income is the most common way to determine eligibility. For example, a child from a family of four is eligible for free school meals if the household’s current annual income is below $34,060. If the family’s annual income is between $34,061 and $48,470, the child is eligible for reduced-price meals. Meal Benefit Applications will be available at the beginning of the school year. Parents and guardians should complete applications in their entirety and submit it to the school; schools cannot approve incomplete applications. United States citizenship is not required to be eligible for free or reduced-price meals. Schools will inform households whether children qualify for free or reduced-price meals. Parents and guardians may speak with school officials concerning disagreement with the school’s decision or appeal the decision and request a hearing with the school district’s administrators. Children enrolled in Head Start, Even Start, certified as homeless, migrant, runaway, foster, or children living in households that receive Food Supplement Program (FSP) or Temporary Cash Assistance (TCA) benefits are eligible for free meals and do not need to fill out an application. Some FSP and TCA households will receive a letter from the school informing them that children in the household are eligible for free meals. FSP and TCA households that do not receive a letter by the beginning of the school year should fill out an application. Other children who may be eligible for free or reduced-price meals include children in households participating in the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC). Parents and guardians of these children should complete an application. Parents and guardians may reapply at any time during the school year and are encouraged to do so if the household size increases, parents and guardians become unemployed, income decreases, or the household qualifies for FSP or TCA. School Meals includes: School Breakfast Program, National School Lunch Program, After-School Care Snack component, and Special Milk Program. The School Meals programs are administered in Maryland by the MSDE, and must meet nutrition requirements set by the USDA." This paragraph stood out for me "Children enrolled in Head Start, Even Start, certified as homeless, migrant, runaway, foster, or children living in households that receive Food Supplement Program (FSP) or Temporary Cash Assistance (TCA) benefits are eligible for free meals and do not need to fill out an application. Some FSP and TCA households will receive a letter from the school informing them that children in the household are eligible for free meals." My information from a company performing pro bono work for the Baltimore administration is that that the incidence of poverty is so high, that the adminstration decided to enrol every one rather than demand they apply individually. So, contrary to the contention that there is a general free meal provision, there is not, as the State guidelines I have posted up confirm. It's just that the local government conceded that in reality almost everyone qualifies. I'll check that, but you are still wilfully misleading by stating that 100% of a children in inner City areas qualify. It's more hysteria. Now checked. The information I had was out of date. You now need to apply for these free meals. So happy to concede that point. And thank you for also correcting your previous statement that 100% of pupils in certain areas qualify, when in actuality they don't. Update. I asked overnight why the policy changed, the reply came that, in part, there was more than a suspicion of 'accounting irregularities' within a system where there was no paperwork trail to demonstrate how many meals were being served. What a shame, a wonderful project, scuppered by greed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 19:43:47 GMT
Less than 30% of the US prison population is white. Not sure what that means as far as this thread is concerned but thought I'd chuck it in. To repeat a point In Baltimore, Maryland, 100% of the kids in the inner city are so poor that they qualify for free breakfast and lunch. 100%. 90% of that population are ethnic minorities. Is it to anyone's surprise then that social cohesion breaks down? That with a loss of hope that criminality increases? Not claiming it's right, but it's understandable. As a result the States does not attack the root cause, they just lock up the adults, cover their eyes and hope it all goes away. It has not and it will not. Now add in to that poisonous mix a degree of prejudice and bias. As I’ve said before though you take away people’s agency when you talk like that. Let’s put it another way: I had an abusive childhood, came from a poor background and got bullied at school- does that give me the moral right to deal drugs and or become a gang banger free from guilt? I mean, my background gives me all the excuse I need right? It was society’s fault, not mine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 19:59:25 GMT
To repeat a point In Baltimore, Maryland, 100% of the kids in the inner city are so poor that they qualify for free breakfast and lunch. 100%. 90% of that population are ethnic minorities. Is it to anyone's surprise then that social cohesion breaks down? That with a loss of hope that criminality increases? Not claiming it's right, but it's understandable. As a result the States does not attack the root cause, they just lock up the adults, cover their eyes and hope it all goes away. It has not and it will not. Now add in to that poisonous mix a degree of prejudice and bias. As I’ve said before though you take away people’s agency when you talk like that. Let’s put it another way: I had an abusive childhood, came from a poor background and got bullied at school- does that give me the moral right to deal drugs and or become a gang banger free from guilt? I mean, my background gives me all the excuse I need right? It was society’s fault, not mine. Nobody is claiming that or justifying criminality. But we cannot avoid the fact that social deprivation leads to poor outcomes. No your background does not give you an excuse, but I can sense your anger (that may be incorrect if course). Now add a dose of prejudice or bias to your feelings...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 20:01:59 GMT
It’s the question nobody dare ask for fear of getting ”cancelled” but I’m going to try and broach it as I would like to educated on the subject: This seems to me a bit like the deaths in custody in the U.K. stuff that is based on incomplete information to make us all immediately conclude “racism!” So do we have any stats for the suspects or eye witness description of suspects of crimes in London? Because if most of the suspects for crimes are black then that would explain why black people are stopped and searched more? Or if Black people were found to carry knives more often etc. If my demographic (scruffy white male, early 40s) was considered most likely to commit rape or whatever then I would absolutely expect the police to be stopping people who look like me, including me. It would be annoying as hell obviously but I would accept it as part of the fact that the police would be wasting their time stopping young black males or whoever just to not appear to be targeting my particular demographic. If the police have good cause for stopping a certain type of person to avoid wasting unnecessary time then I don’t think they should be vilified for that. The issue of course is what data is out there to support the idea that, in London serious crime is committed by black people. The media certainly tend to portray gangs and drug dealers in London as being black but I would like to see that proved/disproved with statistics. As far as I am aware though suspect data is not available.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 20:10:48 GMT
As I’ve said before though you take away people’s agency when you talk like that. Let’s put it another way: I had an abusive childhood, came from a poor background and got bullied at school- does that give me the moral right to deal drugs and or become a gang banger free from guilt? I mean, my background gives me all the excuse I need right? It was society’s fault, not mine. Nobody is claiming that or justifying criminality. But we cannot avoid the fact that social deprivation leads to poor outcomes. No your background does not give you an excuse, but I can sense your anger (that may be incorrect if course). Now add a dose of prejudice or bias to your feelings... It does, I think everyone in this thread agrees on that point- but everyone still has a choice. You can have some moral fibre and earn a legal (if soul crushing, admittedly) living or you can choose to join a gang and make the issues in your community worse. I’d like to see more done in terms of black culture to ridicule that way of life. Sadly there are way more rap songs and tv shows that glorify that path than try and teach kids that crime is not the answer- can you imagine a rapper who raps about encouraging black youths to get into accountancy or programming?! His career would be over before it began. Imo this is where the differences in achievement between black Indian and Chinese creep in, their cultural standards in terms of achievement seem to be different.
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Post by William Wilson on Jul 10, 2020 5:52:35 GMT
If you get the chance have a look at Michael Holdings impassioned speech at the cricket on Sky today. Not the sort of thing normally sedate cricket coverage gets into. Brilliant!! What??? After all the wickets he took against us, in the 70/80s. I don`t think so.
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