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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 13:43:57 GMT
Ditto. Makes me smile, the faux outrage because a group of people choose to express their solidarity with something they sympathise with. Trouble with that is there is then the faux outrage if you don't "choose" to express your solidarity in the same manner as others around you. Even if you sympathise with it. Never witnessed that. A couple of NFL players refused which invited comments..but other than that. Nah, it's mostly white folks getting hot under their collar because a minority group called out injustice and then expressed solidarity. For the life of me I see no logic in getting upset about it. Quite the opposite, we all agree with equality, don't we? Don't we?? |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 7, 2020 13:59:23 GMT
Trouble with that is there is then the faux outrage if you don't "choose" to express your solidarity in the same manner as others around you. Even if you sympathise with it. . A couple of NFL players refused which invited comments..but other than that. Nah, it's mostly white folks getting hot under their collar because a minority group called out injustice and then expressed solidarity. For the life of me I see no logic in getting upset about it. Quite the opposite, we all agree with equality, don't we? Don't we?? This guy did...... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 14:16:20 GMT
Never witnessed that. A couple of NFL players refused which invited comments..but other than that. Nah, it's mostly white folks getting hot under their collar because a minority group called out injustice and then expressed solidarity. For the life of me I see no logic in getting upset about it. Quite the opposite, we all agree with equality, don't we? Don't we?? This guy did...... That's another...ONE..Did he get stick over it? |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 7, 2020 14:19:51 GMT
That's another...ONE..Did he get stick over it? Seemingly so from his comments. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 15:33:41 GMT
If I took the knee I'm not sure I'd make it back up again. Ditto. Makes me smile, the faux outrage because a group of people choose to express their solidarity with something they sympathise with. How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 16:08:17 GMT
Ditto. Makes me smile, the faux outrage because a group of people choose to express their solidarity with something they sympathise with. How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Imagine the stick if only one player chose not to take part? It would be headline news on every channel and on the front page of every paper. McLean getting abuse even now for not wearing a poppy! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 17:14:46 GMT
How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Imagine the stick if only one player chose not to take part? It would be headline news on every channel and on the front page of every paper. McLean getting abuse even now for not wearing a poppy! I think McClean is a twat personally as he is all too happy to take the shilling of the queen that he despises so his morality is somewhat warped, but in a more general sense yes, of course, anyone who objects will not be respected they will be villified. This is the problem when ideologies that are too liberal take hold, it’s the same as things being too right wing- if you fail to keep in lockstep with the prevailing ideology you become a target. If I was a footballer I would love to be the one to actually stand up and say “no, I am not doing what you tell me to do”, but it’s aimply not worth the hassle because no-one would politely ask me what my thoughts are. It wouldn’t open up a frank discussion about my thoughts on how taking a knee is, quite frankly, a daft form of symbolism. I’d be “cancelled” by the Twitterati and my sponsorship with the likes of Ben and Jerry and all their ultra-woke cohorts would be cancelled (even though, like Ben and Jerry, most of these woke corporations have skeletons in their closets themselves). So everyone just plays along with it because the premier league told them they should because it looks good for social credentials of their product to have a trained platoon of baboons taking a knee on command. That’s what really gets on my nerves, that a lot of these companies who are leading the woke charge are only doing it for marketing purposes because they sense which way the wind is blowing. Why weren’t they all so sh** hot on this stuff before? Why did it take the death of a man for them all to question how racist they are? Because up until that point it wasn’t fashionable and far be it for them to lead the charge and make it fashionable, the likes of the premier league waited for George Floyd to die and *then* they put BLM on their shirts rather than pre-emoting it and leading by example. It’s all so transparent and shallow so all this taking a knee is hard for me to get behind as a result. |
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Post by Gassy on Sept 7, 2020 17:29:52 GMT
How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Imagine the stick if only one player chose not to take part? It would be headline news on every channel and on the front page of every paper. McLean getting abuse even now for not wearing a poppy! So normally I’d agree with you here but there were a couple of times some players didn’t recently I believe? One of the England rugby players didn’t take a knee, there was an article on it where he explained himself and that was it really. I was surprised at the lack of backlash if I’m honest, although maybe it worse for a footballer? |
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Post by Gassy on Sept 7, 2020 17:36:30 GMT
Ditto. Makes me smile, the faux outrage because a group of people choose to express their solidarity with something they sympathise with. How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 7, 2020 17:55:11 GMT
How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? That’s the entirely sensible way to look at it. But as always the pendulum can swing both ways as the recent example in USA with the woman in Washington who was surrounded by a (mostly white) baying mob and being shouted and verbally abused for not raising her fist in support of BLM as they demanded. (Even though she was in full support of the BLM cause and had recently been on a march/rally in support of it). It’s because of this counter productive action that people start to question what the values are. And like I said earlier not “choosing” to gesture in the way others say you should gets you abuse, verbal at best. So at that point I guess it does start to bother people. Guess there will always be people who want to take a sensible cause and push it to the extremes and that’s when it starts to get divisive. Probably not answering your sensible point raised above though. Not sure what the answer is. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 18:05:34 GMT
How do we know they choose to? I struggle to believe that every premiership player who took the knee didn’t have some form of concern that it’s all a load of bollocks and a very plastic and ersatz way of supporting a movement that would be far better served by actual action and not empty gestures. Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? It’s a fair question. I don’t disagree with protesting, I just thought the timing of it was pretty bad and risked lives because of the pandemic situation, but arguably some of the momentum has fizzled out since then. Money is one response which can be countered by “to do what?” well I guess that would be for BLM to decide. I guess it comes down to how BLM expects to achieve it’s aims and how rich footballers can contribute as I expect they can contribute more than most in a much more productive way than a token gesture on a field because they were told to by head office. I’m sure in BLM’s list of things that people can do to help taking a knee is low down the bottom compared with lobbying, donating and getting greater representation within British politics. The irony of course being that if BLM really do want to dismantle capitalism then the premier league will be the first thing to go as it’s a horrendously capitalist and superfluous boil on the arse of society. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 18:07:05 GMT
Imagine the stick if only one player chose not to take part? It would be headline news on every channel and on the front page of every paper. McLean getting abuse even now for not wearing a poppy! So normally I’d agree with you here but there were a couple of times some players didn’t recently I believe? One of the England rugby players didn’t take a knee, there was an article on it where he explained himself and that was it really. I was surprised at the lack of backlash if I’m honest, although maybe it worse for a footballer? Wasn’t it Vunipola who himself if BAME? What reaction would there be if it was one of the white, middle classed, privately educated players? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 18:29:35 GMT
Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? That’s the entirely sensible way to look at it. But as always the pendulum can swing both ways as the recent example in USA with the woman in Washington who was surrounded by a (mostly white) baying mob and being shouted and verbally abused for not raising her fist in support of BLM as they demanded. (Even though she was in full support of the BLM cause and had recently been on a march/rally in support of it). It’s because of this counter productive action that people start to question what the values are. And like I said earlier not “choosing” to gesture in the way others say you should gets you abuse, verbal at best. So at that point I guess it does start to bother people. Guess there will always be people who want to take a sensible cause and push it to the extremes and that’s when it starts to get divisive. Probably not answering your sensible point raised above though. Not sure what the answer is. The trouble I find with your view, albeit entirely reasonable, us that people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If one is white then the establishment label you "Antifa" or "Anarchist" If the Afro American/Caribbean do protest then you get talk of people burning down their own neighborhood or having been hijacked by "antifa" The only yardstick by which to measure protest is the degree of the problem (in my opinion). In 1968 it was American Apartheid, subsequently it has been economic inequality, more recently is the degree of police violence. In my mind all those things are still in existence to one degree or another. So the protest is tame by comparison. The feedback I received from Charlotte NC was that these issues transcend race, which frightens the f**k out of the establishment. Taking the knee is long past its effective point, it's a gesture. Much, much more needs to happen. |
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Post by matealotblue on Sept 7, 2020 19:04:14 GMT
That’s the entirely sensible way to look at it. But as always the pendulum can swing both ways as the recent example in USA with the woman in Washington who was surrounded by a (mostly white) baying mob and being shouted and verbally abused for not raising her fist in support of BLM as they demanded. (Even though she was in full support of the BLM cause and had recently been on a march/rally in support of it). It’s because of this counter productive action that people start to question what the values are. And like I said earlier not “choosing” to gesture in the way others say you should gets you abuse, verbal at best. So at that point I guess it does start to bother people. Guess there will always be people who want to take a sensible cause and push it to the extremes and that’s when it starts to get divisive. Probably not answering your sensible point raised above though. Not sure what the answer is. The trouble I find with your view, albeit entirely reasonable, us that people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If one is white then the establishment label you "Antifa" or "Anarchist" If the Afro American/Caribbean do protest then you get talk of people burning down their own neighborhood or having been hijacked by "antifa" The only yardstick by which to measure protest is the degree of the problem (in my opinion). In 1968 it was American Apartheid, subsequently it has been economic inequality, more recently is the degree of police violence. In my mind all those things are still in existence to one degree or another. So the protest is tame by comparison. The feedback I received from Charlotte NC was that these issues transcend race, which frightens the f**k out of the establishment. Taking the knee is long past its effective point, it's a gesture. Much, much more needs to happen. Yes, I think the “damned if you do/ damned if you don’t” is probably right . But shouldn’t stop you exercising your democratic right to do so. Maybe the only way to measure protest is the degree to which it “solves” the problem not so much the “degree” of the problem. And some have been effective in solving what they set out to achieve. On the other hand if the response to the protests are seen as the answer, as you have said above the things you quoted are still in existence. So were the protests effective...? Self evident I guess. But what needs to happen? If we had the answer to that life would be so much easier...... All of which, in summary, is probably not much help in taking the debate forward though.....🤔 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 19:19:56 GMT
The trouble I find with your view, albeit entirely reasonable, us that people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If one is white then the establishment label you "Antifa" or "Anarchist" If the Afro American/Caribbean do protest then you get talk of people burning down their own neighborhood or having been hijacked by "antifa" The only yardstick by which to measure protest is the degree of the problem (in my opinion). In 1968 it was American Apartheid, subsequently it has been economic inequality, more recently is the degree of police violence. In my mind all those things are still in existence to one degree or another. So the protest is tame by comparison. The feedback I received from Charlotte NC was that these issues transcend race, which frightens the f**k out of the establishment. Taking the knee is long past its effective point, it's a gesture. Much, much more needs to happen. Yes, I think the “damned if you do/ damned if you don’t” is probably right . But shouldn’t stop you exercising your democratic right to do so. Maybe the only way to measure protest is the degree to which it “solves” the problem not so much the “degree” of the problem. And some have been effective in solving what they set out to achieve. On the other hand if the response to the protests are seen as the answer, as you have said above the things you quoted are still in existence. So were the protests effective...? Self evident I guess. But what needs to happen? If we had the answer to that life would be so much easier...... All of which, in summary, is probably not much help in taking the debate forward though.....🤔 It goes back to the point raised by 365 and William. It's all ok if we follow the lead of the Senator from Tennessee who pointed out he obeyed apartheid rules and followed the path advocated by MLK. Admirable but ultimately ineffective. We are still discussing most of the same points 52 years later. |
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Post by oldgas on Sept 7, 2020 19:31:51 GMT
No, I was at home with my family and I watched the game on i player. In the morning whilst at work at Temple Meads I gave the homeless English guy who spends a lot of his time around the outside of the station a couple of quid and had a quick chat. I wonder if he'd quite like to live in a 4 star hotel all expenses paid? Why did you not offer him a bed at your house? Is your couple of quid not just going to maintain his homeless status? Homeless in Bristol were offered hotels to stay in, many in my local area, but the gammon generally didn't like it as they didn't want to see homeless begging in the suburbs. There are a couple of reasons. First of all I don’t have a spare room or bed in my house. I also pay around a 4 figure sum every month in income tax and National Insurance. I don’t begrudge that money as long as it’s used sensibly to support this country and it’s people. I therefore expect my contribution to go towards helping and housing people like the fellow I just described. Therefore I have done my bit with regard to him and the thousands of other indigenous homeless people. what a I do object most strongly to is my hard earned money being spent housing illegal immigrants in 4 star hotels and immediately giving them free healthcare and all the other services that are provided by the welfare state. There are people in this country who seem to positively encourage this invasion, and shout their mouths off that everyone should accept and welcome this, and accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being racist, the left wings catch-all response. Taking this to its logical conclusion it follows that those so supportive of these illegal arrivals should also be willing to offer them a room and bed. After all you can’t have it all ways, The country's tax money should be spent on the legitimately homeless and needy. The illegals should be offered every help by the left wing twats who are so eager to welcome them into our overcrowded and under-funded country. After all, that jug-eared, virtue signalling leftie twat Lineker is going to do it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 20:21:13 GMT
Yes, I think the “damned if you do/ damned if you don’t” is probably right . But shouldn’t stop you exercising your democratic right to do so. Maybe the only way to measure protest is the degree to which it “solves” the problem not so much the “degree” of the problem. And some have been effective in solving what they set out to achieve. On the other hand if the response to the protests are seen as the answer, as you have said above the things you quoted are still in existence. So were the protests effective...? Self evident I guess. But what needs to happen? If we had the answer to that life would be so much easier...... All of which, in summary, is probably not much help in taking the debate forward though.....🤔 It goes back to the point raised by 365 and William. It's all ok if we follow the lead of the Senator from Tennessee who pointed out he obeyed apartheid rules and followed the path advocated by MLK. Admirable but ultimately ineffective. We are still discussing most of the same points 52 years later. That’s as maybe, but what will rioting solve long term? Will burning down businesses and harming local economies result in improved conditions for black people in the US in 5 or 10 years time? I’ll bet, just like peaceful protest, we’ll still be having the same conversations in the same way as you pointed out above. It will require more than bending knees too. What I wonder is what effect the peaceful protest *did* have. It’s all hazy but I recall something about someone making the point about peaceful protest resulting in black people going up in the estimation of white Americans, thus improving relations precisely because they did not resort to the sort of action everyone expected them to take. Is that not a fair point, that some progress was made in terms of integration? Whilst there may be apartheid laws on the statute book when have they ever been enforced in America? Off the top of my head America has never had a South African system since the Second World War has it? The main issue has been individual prejudice and a lack of acceptance, I could be wrong on that though and happy to be corrected. And once again it’s worth actually stating that we don’t know who these rioters actually are. I can quite well believe that it’s either agent provocateurs, Antifa or, most likely, politically agnostic opportunistic thrill seekers who are behind the rioting. That certainly seemed to be the case in London with that BAME guy on BBC news who was lamenting all the trouble being caused by people who seemed to have very little in common with the people actually protesting for BLM. He had the same attitude as the senator, that violence actually undermines the message and causes more trouble between us all than there already is. I had a lot of sympathy and respect for him. |
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Post by Gassy on Sept 7, 2020 20:32:50 GMT
Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? That’s the entirely sensible way to look at it. But as always the pendulum can swing both ways as the recent example in USA with the woman in Washington who was surrounded by a (mostly white) baying mob and being shouted and verbally abused for not raising her fist in support of BLM as they demanded. (Even though she was in full support of the BLM cause and had recently been on a march/rally in support of it). It’s because of this counter productive action that people start to question what the values are. And like I said earlier not “choosing” to gesture in the way others say you should gets you abuse, verbal at best. So at that point I guess it does start to bother people. Guess there will always be people who want to take a sensible cause and push it to the extremes and that’s when it starts to get divisive. Probably not answering your sensible point raised above though. Not sure what the answer is. Where does this end though? Footballers are made to do sh*t they might not agree with all the time, thats part and parcel of the job. Out of curiosity, what is actual action? What would you like to see happen? I bring it up because surely protesting and making a point is the best way for people to consistently be reminded of an issue? I bring this up because in Slovakia, they only peacefully protest. During the breakup of Czechoslovakia, the 'revolution' in Slovakia was entirely peaceful. This is still part of their culture today, if they disagree with the government or the way things are, they peacefully walk the streets until action is taken from the government. Is this an empty gesture? (Genuine question btw) I guess I'm just curious as to what is considered an empty gesture vs action. If people protest people moan, if they take the knee (which lets be honest really shouldn't be bothering anyone) then people moan. So how do we drive action and who from? It’s a fair question. I don’t disagree with protesting, I just thought the timing of it was pretty bad and risked lives because of the pandemic situation, but arguably some of the momentum has fizzled out since then. Money is one response which can be countered by “to do what?” well I guess that would be for BLM to decide. I guess it comes down to how BLM expects to achieve it’s aims and how rich footballers can contribute as I expect they can contribute more than most in a much more productive way than a token gesture on a field because they were told to by head office. I’m sure in BLM’s list of things that people can do to help taking a knee is low down the bottom compared with lobbying, donating and getting greater representation within British politics. The irony of course being that if BLM really do want to dismantle capitalism then the premier league will be the first thing to go as it’s a horrendously capitalist and superfluous boil on the arse of society. Good couple of posts and I agree with most/all of the points raised. I think earlier in the thread it was brought up about 'when does it stop'? I always wonder these things tbh, but it some how always does. Realistically I can see the knee being the new 'kick it out' campaign, where it'll just be the standard thing to do going forward. I'd like to see footballers, especially the top ones, do a lot more though. As 365 says, they can do a hell of a lot more than just take the knee, just look at Rashford ffs - he is genuinely inspirational. I'm sure they all have their agent/life manager donate x% of their salary to charity, which is nice and all but it's mostly just fitting in. At the same time though, it's a pleasure to see Sterling & Rashford, 2 young English black players really raising issues in the right way. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 21:03:36 GMT
That’s the entirely sensible way to look at it. But as always the pendulum can swing both ways as the recent example in USA with the woman in Washington who was surrounded by a (mostly white) baying mob and being shouted and verbally abused for not raising her fist in support of BLM as they demanded. (Even though she was in full support of the BLM cause and had recently been on a march/rally in support of it). It’s because of this counter productive action that people start to question what the values are. And like I said earlier not “choosing” to gesture in the way others say you should gets you abuse, verbal at best. So at that point I guess it does start to bother people. Guess there will always be people who want to take a sensible cause and push it to the extremes and that’s when it starts to get divisive. Probably not answering your sensible point raised above though. Not sure what the answer is. It’s a fair question. I don’t disagree with protesting, I just thought the timing of it was pretty bad and risked lives because of the pandemic situation, but arguably some of the momentum has fizzled out since then. Money is one response which can be countered by “to do what?” well I guess that would be for BLM to decide. I guess it comes down to how BLM expects to achieve it’s aims and how rich footballers can contribute as I expect they can contribute more than most in a much more productive way than a token gesture on a field because they were told to by head office. I’m sure in BLM’s list of things that people can do to help taking a knee is low down the bottom compared with lobbying, donating and getting greater representation within British politics. The irony of course being that if BLM really do want to dismantle capitalism then the premier league will be the first thing to go as it’s a horrendously capitalist and superfluous boil on the arse of society. Good couple of posts and I agree with most/all of the points raised. I think earlier in the thread it was brought up about 'when does it stop'? I always wonder these things tbh, but it some how always does. Realistically I can see the knee being the new 'kick it out' campaign, where it'll just be the standard thing to do going forward. I'd like to see footballers, especially the top ones, do a lot more though. As 365 says, they can do a hell of a lot more than just take the knee, just look at Rashford ffs - he is genuinely inspirational. I'm sure they all have their agent/life manager donate x% of their salary to charity, which is nice and all but it's mostly just fitting in. At the same time though, it's a pleasure to see Sterling & Rashford, 2 young English black players really raising issues in the right way. Yeah good use of Rashford as an example of a footballer getting off his ass and doing something. Compare his work on school meals vs bending the knee, one is clearly making a difference through action the other...is just a bit bland and passé, even more so when you know they are being told to do it. I keep going back to what Dion Dublin said- bending the knee and marches are nice but “it’s just printing t-shirts again”, in other words, it’s passive, we’ve seen it all before and little changes. Action is needed and as I’ve said for a while, that action has to be focused on greater representation in politics. And also getting the Tories out- wake me up when that happens. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 21:04:33 GMT
It goes back to the point raised by 365 and William. It's all ok if we follow the lead of the Senator from Tennessee who pointed out he obeyed apartheid rules and followed the path advocated by MLK. Admirable but ultimately ineffective. We are still discussing most of the same points 52 years later. That’s as maybe, but what will rioting solve long term? Will burning down businesses and harming local economies result in improved conditions for black people in the US in 5 or 10 years time? I’ll bet, just like peaceful protest, we’ll still be having the same conversations in the same way as you pointed out above. It will require more than bending knees too. What I wonder is what effect the peaceful protest *did* have. It’s all hazy but I recall something about someone making the point about peaceful protest resulting in black people going up in the estimation of white Americans, thus improving relations precisely because they did not resort to the sort of action everyone expected them to take. Is that not a fair point, that some progress was made in terms of integration? Whilst there may be apartheid laws on the statute book when have they ever been enforced in America? Off the top of my head America has never had a South African system since the Second World War has it? The main issue has been individual prejudice and a lack of acceptance, I could be wrong on that though and happy to be corrected. And once again it’s worth actually stating that we don’t know who these rioters actually are. I can quite well believe that it’s either agent provocateurs, Antifa or, most likely, politically agnostic opportunistic thrill seekers who are behind the rioting. That certainly seemed to be the case in London with that BAME guy on BBC news who was lamenting all the trouble being caused by people who seemed to have very little in common with the people actually protesting for BLM. He had the same attitude as the senator, that violence actually undermines the message and causes more trouble between us all than there already is. I had a lot of sympathy and respect for him. Ok Let's take this on 365 "That’s as maybe, but what will rioting solve long term?" Who says there is "rioting"? The establishment press? The police? Trump? All I can tell you as fact is that there was a very large demonstration / protest in Charlotte NC attended by two if my grandsons. They reported a vociferous mixed race crowd which was entirely peaceful, and then the police tear gassed them and used rubber bullets. Who was rioting or out of control exactly? 365 "It’s all hazy but I recall something about someone making the point about peaceful protest resulting in black people going up in the estimation of white Americans, thus improving relations precisely because they did not resort to the sort of action everyone expected them to take" Mate, are you for real? Who gives a f**k about the "estimation of white Americans" Jesus F Christ. It's equality, not some patronising, condescending pat on the head. For f**ks sake. 365 "Whilst there may be apartheid laws on the statute book when have they ever been enforced in America? Off the top of my head America has never had a South African system since the Second World War has it?" Ummmm....seriously? You cannot be that poorly educated or ill informed, surely? You are kidding, right? Just in case "On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Parks rejected bus driver James F. Blake's order to relinquish her seat in the "colored section" to a white passenger, after the whites-only section was filled. Parks was not the first person to resist bus segregation, but the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) believed that she was the best candidate for seeing through a court challenge after her arrest for civil disobedience in violating Alabama segregation laws." Read the date. 1955. For William, note the use of "Civil Disobedience" On the rest. It is the classic establishment playbook to label anyone who supports a movement led by others as "Antifa" or "anarchists" They cannot abide the coming together of what they consider "disparate" groups. It threatens them. Twas always thus, and you fall for it. Shame on you. |
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