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Post by oldie on Mar 7, 2022 19:39:09 GMT
I read that. My instant thought was "oh god, not another one" Stop with the pretence oldie. You literally just linked to an article by a research fellow at the far-right noeocon Henry Jackson Society. Co-founder Matthew Jamison wrote in 2017 that he was ashamed of his involvement in what he described as a "far-right, deeply anti-Muslim racist ... propaganda outfit to smear other cultures, religions and ethnic groups." I presume you replied to the wrong comment. No pretence, as I said their views are as valid/invalid as the opinion piece you posted up, authored by a guy who makes it up, or at best extrapolates information in the general domain and twists it to serve his opinion. Its rubbish and you know it |
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Post by oldie on Mar 7, 2022 19:42:37 GMT
No fly zone over Ukraine ? It breaks my heart when I see and hear the impassioned pleas from Ukrainians calling for it but also I get the reasons of the ‘west’ not doing it. What do you guys think ? Me. We cannot without declaring war with Russia. Its awful, many hundreds, maybe thousands may die. However if Putin starts committing atrocities such as in Aleppo or Grozny, can we sit back and watch it happen? |
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Post by trevorgas on Mar 7, 2022 21:00:25 GMT
No fly zone over Ukraine ? It breaks my heart when I see and hear the impassioned pleas from Ukrainians calling for it but also I get the reasons of the ‘west’ not doing it. What do you guys think ? Me. We cannot without declaring war with Russia. Its awful, many hundreds, maybe thousands may die. However if Putin starts committing atrocities such as in Aleppo or Grozny, can we sit back and watch it happen? We shouldn't but we will,can't believe I'm going to say this but heyho,if and it's a big if we can be relatively sure there would no nuclear exchange we should go for it otherwise if he is successful in Ukraine he will go for Moldova next with its Russian enclave then we will have to engage. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 7, 2022 21:21:06 GMT
Me. We cannot without declaring war with Russia. Its awful, many hundreds, maybe thousands may die. However if Putin starts committing atrocities such as in Aleppo or Grozny, can we sit back and watch it happen? We shouldn't but we will,can't believe I'm going to say this but heyho,if and it's a big if we can be relatively sure there would no nuclear exchange we should go for it otherwise if he is successful in Ukraine he will go for Moldova next with its Russian enclave then we will have to engage. That’s the thing though isn’t it ….. he can just annex part or all of Ukraine then use the same threat ( nukes ) to move into other countries he fancies invading. We can’t just sit and watch civilians getting slaughtered can we ? It’s barbaric. |
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Post by francegas on Mar 7, 2022 21:43:22 GMT
No fly zone over Ukraine ? It breaks my heart when I see and hear the impassioned pleas from Ukrainians calling for it but also I get the reasons of the ‘west’ not doing it. What do you guys think ? Difficult question to answer Yatton. To me it depends how far the West/Nato are prepared to test Putin. He has already said any country hosting any fighter jets for use in Ukraine he will look upon as a declaration of war. He has also said the implementation of a no fly zone he looks upon as a declaration of war. What I don't understand is he has said he doesn't want Nato on his doorstep yet there are already Nato members with land borders with Russia and Alaska is only 55 odd miles from Russia. To prevent him invading Moldova maybe get them signed up as a Nato member now. Seems if Nato do not want a conflict with Russia Putin appears to have the upper hand. But how long do we sit back and do nothing. Don't know if you have read (probably fake news) reports going round that Putin may have terminal cancer. If true will he really give a toss about taking the world into a nuclear conflict. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 7, 2022 21:52:23 GMT
No fly zone over Ukraine ? It breaks my heart when I see and hear the impassioned pleas from Ukrainians calling for it but also I get the reasons of the ‘west’ not doing it. What do you guys think ? Difficult question to answer Yatton. To me it depends how far the West/Nato are prepared to test Putin. He has already said any country hosting any fighter jets for use in Ukraine he will look upon as a declaration of war. He has also said the implementation of a no fly zone he looks upon as a declaration of war. What I don't understand is he has said he doesn't want Nato on his doorstep yet there are already Nato members with land borders with Russia and Alaska is only 55 odd miles from Russia. To prevent him invading Moldova maybe get them signed up as a Nato member now. Seems if Nato do not want a conflict with Russia Putin appears to have the upper hand. But how long do we sit back and do nothing. Don't know if you have read (probably fake news) reports going round that Putin may have terminal cancer. If true will he really give a toss about taking the world into a nuclear conflict. Heard various rumours about his health , cancer , bad back that needs steroids etc . Let’s hope it’s the former ! |
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Post by trevorgas on Mar 7, 2022 21:53:13 GMT
We shouldn't but we will,can't believe I'm going to say this but heyho,if and it's a big if we can be relatively sure there would no nuclear exchange we should go for it otherwise if he is successful in Ukraine he will go for Moldova next with its Russian enclave then we will have to engage. That’s the thing though isn’t it ….. he can just annex part or all of Ukraine then use the same threat ( nukes ) to move into other countries he fancies invading. We can’t just sit and watch civilians getting slaughtered can we ? It’s barbaric. I agree we will have to call his bluff, how will he react he's obviously self obsessed/paranoid does that mean he would go nuclear?, Whilst he may order it, I believe even in the Russian protocols there are checks and balances so ultimately not his call. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 0:26:28 GMT
No fly zone over Ukraine ? It breaks my heart when I see and hear the impassioned pleas from Ukrainians calling for it but also I get the reasons of the ‘west’ not doing it. What do you guys think ? A no fly zone isn't easy, not only would we put Nato fighters up against Russians with the obvious issues of downing them we'd also have to look out for the radars and surface to air missiles and other air defence systems. Much of which is inside Russia and Belarus. We'd have to be impartial so a no fly zone would also apply to Ukraine planes. One theory is that the bulk of the Russian air force is being held back waiting for Nato to get involved. Doesn't really hold water but it's an interesting idea. I have wondered whether we could bring in a 'safe haven' concept much like in Bosnia and Iraq in the 90s. We could have a small zone around Lviv which would also provide security to the refugees and slow the mass exodus. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 0:31:16 GMT
That’s the thing though isn’t it ….. he can just annex part or all of Ukraine then use the same threat ( nukes ) to move into other countries he fancies invading. We can’t just sit and watch civilians getting slaughtered can we ? It’s barbaric. I agree we will have to call his bluff, how will he react he's obviously self obsessed/paranoid does that mean he would go nuclear?, Whilst he may order it, I believe even in the Russian protocols there are checks and balances so ultimately not his call. If fighting is contained within Ukraine then I think you may be right, but there is still a deep seated mindset in the Kremlin with many Cold War era people who remain paranoid about the West. It would only take a small miscalculation to escalate things. Not easy. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 0:37:15 GMT
News today of a senior Russian General being killed, possibly a close relative of the top soldier himself. That won't have gone down well in Moscow.
Japan staking a claim to islands the lost in 1945 causing Russia to deploy forces there.
Apparently CNN have reported that there have been calls for more Wagner Group members (Russian mercenaries with some dubious affiliations and chequered history) and Syrian volunteer to go to Ukraine now.
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 0:59:37 GMT
I’d give up if I were you Oldie . You’ll spend valuable time pulling apart Pirates posts and his discredited sources . Then he’ll just post more & more ad nauseam . I was born and raised on the dark side, south of the river. The primordial instincts in me smell blood...👹 Interesting how the same words can be read differently by different people. These exchanges are actually quite good and informative. jewishunpacked.com/the-azov-movement-lets-talk-about-ukraines-nazi-problem/ |
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 3:37:35 GMT
Not only has Igor Kolomoisky funded Azov, but he has funded the Aidar battalion too. Amnesty International reported that the Aidar battalion were committing war crimes, including illegal abductions, unlawful detention, robbery, extortion and even possible executions.
Amnesty also reported that the pro-Kiev battalions, which include the Dnipro-1 (also funded by Kolomoisky) and the Aidar battalions, have blocked aid entering territories controlled by the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics.
The Dnipro-1 volunteer battalion, along with members of the Donbass battalion and the Pravyi Sector (Right Sector) militia, are reported to have blocked 11 roads leading into the Donetsk People’s Republic-controlled territory, according to Amnesty International.
Denis Krivosheev, acting Director of Europe and Central Asia for Amnesty International, stated that "using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is a war crime"
President Zelensky In December 2021, would be seen delivering a “Hero of Ukraine” award to a leader of the Pravyi Sector (Right Sector) in a ceremony in Ukraine’s parliament.
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Post by yattongas on Mar 8, 2022 6:46:10 GMT
Think I’ve read there is now 3000 US Vets , 800 Uk and a total of about 15k foreign fighters who’ve gone to fight in the war for Ukraine 🇺🇦. They must be mad as well as being very brave !
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 8:08:21 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection.
Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side?
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 8:14:38 GMT
Think I’ve read there is now 3000 US Vets , 800 Uk and a total of about 15k foreign fighters who’ve gone to fight in the war for Ukraine 🇺🇦. They must be mad as well as being very brave ! This has been going on since around the time of the 2014 coup with thousands of ex-military, white-supremacists, neo-Nazis and other extremists going over to fuel the conflict. (2014) 'Delta, a Ukraine-born former soldier in the Israel Defense Forces, spoke to JTA Thursday on condition of anonymity. He explained how he came to use combat skills he acquired in the Shu’alei Shimshon reconnaissance battalion of the Givati infantry brigade to rise through the ranks of Kiev’s street fighters. He has headed a force of 40 men and women — including several fellow IDF veterans — in violent clashes with government forces.' www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-militia-commander-fights-to-protect-kiev/'According to Lower Class Magazine, a leftist German publication, Azov maintains a semi-underground outfit called the “Misanthropic Division” that recruits heavily among the ranks of neo-Nazi youth in France, Germany and Scandinavia. Foreign fighters are promised training with heavy weapons, including tanks, at Ukrainian camps filled with fascist fellow travelers.' thegrayzone.com/2018/04/07/the-us-is-arming-and-assisting-neo-nazis-in-ukraine-while-congress-debates-prohibition/ |
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Post by axegas on Mar 8, 2022 10:37:11 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection. Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side? Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 10:40:06 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection. Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side? Rather than answer your question he doubles down and posts more single entry bollox. Just like yesterday. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 10:52:57 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection. Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side? Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me any, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. Not only that, my question was ignored too. The links given are often dubious, cut and pasted or full of memes. Very little of his actual thoughts. I've tried to engage and like Oldie, I probably try more than it deserves. He comes across as being happy to demonise one side (usually one with US or Isreali links) but nothing to balance that. The Wagner Group is an obvious comparison but no mention. I'm trying, Wes, I really am, but you don't make it easy. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 11:11:11 GMT
Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me any, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. Not only that, my question was ignored too. The links given are often dubious, cut and pasted or full of memes. Very little of his actual thoughts. I've tried to engage and like Oldie, I probably try more than it deserves. He comes across as being happy to demonise one side (usually one with US or Isreali links) but nothing to balance that. The Wagner Group is an obvious comparison but no mention. I'm trying, Wes, I really am, but you don't make it easy. I do wonder sometimes about his mental capacity. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 8, 2022 11:18:59 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection. Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side? Rather than answer your question he doubles down and posts more single entry bollox. Just like yesterday. I did try telling you it was a pointless task ! 😂 I actually feel a bit sorry for him , he’s clearly not an idiot but he clearly is an idiot . Nothing personal Wes , just at the absolute rubbish you keep pumping out. |
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