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Post by axegas on Mar 8, 2022 11:39:52 GMT
Not only that, my question was ignored too. The links given are often dubious, cut and pasted or full of memes. Very little of his actual thoughts. I've tried to engage and like Oldie, I probably try more than it deserves. He comes across as being happy to demonise one side (usually one with US or Isreali links) but nothing to balance that. The Wagner Group is an obvious comparison but no mention. I'm trying, Wes, I really am, but you don't make it easy. I do wonder sometimes about his mental capacity. Personally I don’t think it’s right to discuss someone else’s mental capacity on a public forum. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 11:54:49 GMT
I do wonder sometimes about his mental capacity. Personally I don’t think it’s right to discuss someone else’s mental capacity on a public forum. Yes I know |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 12:34:37 GMT
Rather than answer your question he doubles down and posts more single entry bollox. Just like yesterday. I did try telling you it was a pointless task ! 😂 I actually feel a bit sorry for him , he’s clearly not an idiot but he clearly is an idiot . Nothing personal Wes , just at the absolute rubbish you keep pumping out. When someone's belief systems are challenged they often start resorting to ad hominem attacks. Not the first time and to be expected from the likes of oldie and yatton. 😆 |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 12:36:29 GMT
Morning Wes, you clearly don't like the current Ukrainian government presumably because of an association with the far right groups you mention. You are going out of your way to highlight a connection. Can I ask a question, why are you concentrating on the Ukrainian connection and not calling out any on the Russian side? Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. Holding a position that goes along with mainstream society doesn't necessarily make it true either. Fortunately I have a memory longer than a fish and can remember the propaganda efforts in years gone by involved in previous wars - "throwing babies out of incubators", "weapons of mass destruction" etc. Some of those lies perpetrated by the same neocon warmongering factions linked to the events of 2014 and beyond. "It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression." Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 12:38:50 GMT
I did try telling you it was a pointless task ! 😂 I actually feel a bit sorry for him , he’s clearly not an idiot but he clearly is an idiot . Nothing personal Wes , just at the absolute rubbish you keep pumping out. When someone's belief systems are challenged they often start resorting to ad hominem attacks. Not the first time and to be expected from the likes of oldie and yatton. 😆 As opposed to not responding directly to points or questions raised during a discussion, but continuing to post copy and paste links to authors that repeat the last one you posted. Are you completely incapable of articulating a point? |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 12:39:58 GMT
Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me any, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. Not only that, my question was ignored too. The links given are often dubious, cut and pasted or full of memes. Very little of his actual thoughts. I've tried to engage and like Oldie, I probably try more than it deserves. He comes across as being happy to demonise one side (usually one with US or Isreali links) but nothing to balance that. The Wagner Group is an obvious comparison but no mention. I'm trying, Wes, I really am, but you don't make it easy. Sorry your question was missed not ignored. Nobody else seems willing or able to offer some balance and point out the events led us to the current crisis. As for my sources, they aren't the Daily Mail like you posted, but I hold my hands up, they do include the book 'Western Mainstream Media and the Ukraine Crisis: A Study in Conflict Propaganda' written by a Professor of Journalism and Communication, a mainstream website with over 9 million unique users visiting each month, another site that won the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee Voices of Peace Award, a documentary on the crisis that was recently in the Top 3 position most watched documentaries on iTunes, a scholarly paper written by a Professor of Political Studies (previously a Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University) that was presented at the Annual Meeting of American Political Science Association and the findings of which were published by leading academic press in a book entitled 'The Return of the Cold War: Ukraine, the West and Russia'. |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 12:45:59 GMT
When someone's belief systems are challenged they often start resorting to ad hominem attacks. Not the first time and to be expected from the likes of oldie and yatton. 😆 As opposed to not responding directly to points or questions raised during a discussion, but continuing to post copy and paste links to authors that repeat the last one you posted. Are you completely incapable of articulating a point? Keep up the ad hominem attacks oldie. It goes well with your shameful promotion of a right wing propagandist from the neocon Henry Jackson Society.  |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 12:48:55 GMT
Pirate
"Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government."
No matter how often you repeat it, does not make it true.
You have produced zero evidence to back up that assertion other than the personal opinions of people whose writings are themselves more than dubious.
As I pointed out and you quickly moved on, and proceeded to post another sequence of drivel.
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 12:50:12 GMT
As opposed to not responding directly to points or questions raised during a discussion, but continuing to post copy and paste links to authors that repeat the last one you posted. Are you completely incapable of articulating a point? Keep up the ad hominem attacks oldie. It goes well with your shameful promotion of a right wing propagandist from the neocon Henry Jackson Society. And keep running, rather than answer the points raised. |
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Post by axegas on Mar 8, 2022 12:56:13 GMT
Because he likes to hold a position that runs counter to mainstream society. That’s the ‘thrill’ of being a conspiracy theorist, thinking that you know some higher truth that the rest of us are blinded by the media to see. It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression. Every country has fascists including the UK. No country facing an invasion from a military superpower is going to turn down help from groups willing to stubbornly fight in their defence. The Russians are in a less desperate position obviously and they’ve turned to groups with notable human rights abuses such as Ramzan Kadyrov and his Chechen army and the Wagner group led by Dmitry Utkin, a known far right sympathiser. To me, getting these people to invade and terrorise a peaceful state is far far worse than the Ukrainians being willing to mobilise anyone who is willing to defend their homeland. Holding a position that goes along with mainstream society doesn't necessarily make it true either. Fortunately I have a memory longer than a fish and can remember the propaganda efforts in years gone by involved in previous wars - "throwing babies out of incubators", "weapons of mass destruction" etc. Some of those lies perpetrated by the same neocon warmongering factions linked to the events of 2014 and beyond. "It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression." Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government. ”Overthrow of a democratically elected government” Viktor Yanukovych was implicated in the vote rigging of the 2006 election and the subsequent poisoning of his political rival. Then upon gaining office he sought to amend the constitution without the assent of the Ukrainian people to block any chance of joining NATO and the EU. He was then after years of corruption, press censorship and going back on his promises, impeached from office by that same “democratically elected” parliament after fleeing to the Kremlin and seeking the protection of Vladimir Putin. The same man who is now seeking to supplant the current democratically Ukrainian government with a man who he has more influence over. Or has all that escaped you? Please don’t talk to me about ignorance either. I’ve acknowledged that there are parts of Ukraines war effort that no government would want any ties to in peace time. You are yet to comment on the army of human rights abusers, mercenaries and young conscripts Putin has unleashed on the innocent people of Ukraine. |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Mar 8, 2022 13:07:07 GMT
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 13:14:02 GMT
Holding a position that goes along with mainstream society doesn't necessarily make it true either. Fortunately I have a memory longer than a fish and can remember the propaganda efforts in years gone by involved in previous wars - "throwing babies out of incubators", "weapons of mass destruction" etc. Some of those lies perpetrated by the same neocon warmongering factions linked to the events of 2014 and beyond. "It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression." Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government. ”Overthrow of a democratically elected government” Viktor Yanukovych was implicated in the vote rigging of the 2006 election and the subsequent poisoning of his political rival. Then upon gaining office he sought to amend the constitution without the assent of the Ukrainian people to block any chance of joining NATO and the EU. He was then after years of corruption, press censorship and going back on his promises, impeached from office by that same “democratically elected” parliament after fleeing to the Kremlin and seeking the protection of Vladimir Putin. The same man who is now seeking to supplant the current democratically Ukrainian government with a man who he has more influence over. Or has all that escaped you? Please don’t talk to me about ignorance either. I’ve acknowledged that there are parts of Ukraines war effort that no government would want any ties to in peace time. You are yet to comment on the army of human rights abusers, mercenaries and young conscripts Putin has unleashed on the innocent people of Ukraine. Well said. And Pirate's reply will be.... |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 8, 2022 13:22:15 GMT
Not only that, my question was ignored too. The links given are often dubious, cut and pasted or full of memes. Very little of his actual thoughts. I've tried to engage and like Oldie, I probably try more than it deserves. He comes across as being happy to demonise one side (usually one with US or Isreali links) but nothing to balance that. The Wagner Group is an obvious comparison but no mention. I'm trying, Wes, I really am, but you don't make it easy. Sorry your question was missed not ignored. Nobody else seems willing or able to offer some balance and point out the events led us to the current crisis. As for my sources, they aren't the Daily Mail like you posted, but I hold my hands up, they do include the book 'Western Mainstream Media and the Ukraine Crisis: A Study in Conflict Propaganda' written by a Professor of Journalism and Communication, a mainstream website with over 9 million unique users visiting each month, another site that won the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee Voices of Peace Award, a documentary on the crisis that was recently in the Top 3 position most watched documentaries on iTunes, a scholarly paper written by a Professor of Political Studies (previously a Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University) that was presented at the Annual Meeting of American Political Science Association and the findings of which were published by leading academic press in a book entitled 'The Return of the Cold War: Ukraine, the West and Russia'. I posted a Daily Mail link as it was conveniently available and most people are aware of them so can judge the source in terms of bias and reliability. Most of the sources you post may well be valid but few can judge as they are reasonably unknown, often accompanied by memes, screenshots, innuendo and biased unverified personal opinions dressed up as 'fact'. For example you have used an openly Marxist site and plenty of Twitter feeds which actually, when the threads are read aren't as conclusive as the opening post suggests. I've never claimed Russia had no genuine concerns or that there were no neo nazis in the Ukrainian army or parliament, only that their numbers weren't high. One of the twitter responses above actually explained that numbers were decreasing and they were there because nobody else were getting involved in the early days. I've asked your thoughts on Chechens and Wagner Group. They are just as distasteful and in terms of The Wagner Group, also have right wing affiliations and accusations of nazi sympathisers. In an earlier post you alluded the right wing being representative of the country, at what point do you think a society becomes neo nazi and undeserving of your sympathises or is worse than the other side? |
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 13:24:13 GMT
Pirate "Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government." No matter how often you repeat it, does not make it true. You have produced zero evidence to back up that assertion other than the personal opinions of people whose writings are themselves more than dubious. As I pointed out and you quickly moved on, and proceeded to post another sequence of drivel. You might not agree with it, but the professors scholarly investigations were so 'dubious' that they were published by leading academic press and concluded that the massacre was a false flag operationl rationally planned and carried out with the goal of overthrowing the democratically elected government and seizure of power. As we know the man who came to power was the neocon Victoria Nuland's man Arseniy "Yats" Yatsenyuk. Surely you remember the leaked telephone conversation between Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt where discuss installing a new, pro-US government that will incorporate the fascistic opposition which had been leading street protests against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych? As Stephen Cohen, the professor emeritus of Russian studies and politics at New York University and Princeton University, stated: "The highest-ranking State Department official, who presumably represents the Obama administration, and the American ambassador in Kiev are, to put it in blunt terms, plotting a coup d’état against the elected president of Ukraine." |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 13:30:24 GMT
Pirate "Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government." No matter how often you repeat it, does not make it true. You have produced zero evidence to back up that assertion other than the personal opinions of people whose writings are themselves more than dubious. As I pointed out and you quickly moved on, and proceeded to post another sequence of drivel. You might not agree with it, but the professors scholarly investigations were so 'dubious' that they were published by leading academic press and concluded that the massacre was a false flag operationl rationally planned and carried out with the goal of overthrowing the democratically elected government and seizure of power. As we know the man who came to power was the neocon Victoria Nuland's man Arseniy "Yats" Yatsenyuk. Surely you remember the leaked telephone conversation between Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt where discuss installing a new, pro-US government that will incorporate the fascistic opposition which had been leading street protests against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych? As Stephen Cohen, the professor emeritus of Russian studies and politics at New York University and Princeton University, stated: "The highest-ranking State Department official, who presumably represents the Obama administration, and the American ambassador in Kiev are, to put it in blunt terms, plotting a coup d’état against the elected president of Ukraine." They were used by Routlege, a book publisher. With, as far as I can ascertain absolutely no peer review. Which is very different from an accepted academic position. Which is what you are contending. Now we are done with that, how about responding directly, in your own words, the points Stuart and Axe raised, without hopefully a voluminous amount of links. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 14:48:58 GMT
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 15:03:30 GMT
Holding a position that goes along with mainstream society doesn't necessarily make it true either. Fortunately I have a memory longer than a fish and can remember the propaganda efforts in years gone by involved in previous wars - "throwing babies out of incubators", "weapons of mass destruction" etc. Some of those lies perpetrated by the same neocon warmongering factions linked to the events of 2014 and beyond. "It’s plain to see that the Ukrainian government has some uncomfortable bedfellows in this war but that’s almost entirely down to their desperation to defend their homeland against Russian aggression." Ah I see, willfully ignorant again to the fascist, neo-nazi and outside agent provocateur influences involved in the initial horrific violence and deaths that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government. ”Overthrow of a democratically elected government” Viktor Yanukovych was implicated in the vote rigging of the 2006 election and the subsequent poisoning of his political rival. Then upon gaining office he sought to amend the constitution without the assent of the Ukrainian people to block any chance of joining NATO and the EU. He was then after years of corruption, press censorship and going back on his promises, impeached from office by that same “democratically elected” parliament after fleeing to the Kremlin and seeking the protection of Vladimir Putin. The same man who is now seeking to supplant the current democratically Ukrainian government with a man who he has more influence over. Or has all that escaped you? Please don’t talk to me about ignorance either. I’ve acknowledged that there are parts of Ukraines war effort that no government would want any ties to in peace time. You are yet to comment on the army of human rights abusers, mercenaries and young conscripts Putin has unleashed on the innocent people of Ukraine. Sorry for the delay in replying, I've had an extremely busy day. For a start, Yanukovych wasn't impeached in accordance with the Constitution. The rest are assertions without evidence. There is a lengthy procedure of impeachment which must be followed if a president is to be removed from power before the end of his term of office without violating the Constitution. The British Government lied to Parliament in saying that Yanukovych was impeached and removed from power in accordance with the Constitution. I'm not usually a fan of the Huffington Post, but a blog post by the author David Morrison does a good job of explaining the details of why it was unconstitutional here: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/president-yanukovych_b_7647102.htmlWhat you also seem to be ignoring is the U.S. fueling anti-government sentiment through mechanisms like the National Endowment for Democracy who trained activists, supported 'journalists' and funded business groups. (“doing in public what the CIA used to do in private”, as the Washington Post‘s David Ignatius once wrote.) As I previously highlighted, the National Endowment for Democracy president Carl Gershman wrote a piece in the Washington Post that described Ukraine as the “biggest prize” in the East/West rivalry. After the Obama administration, Nuland joined the National Endowment for Democracy board of directors before returning to the State Department in the Biden administration as undersecretary of state for political affairs. The National Endowment for Democracy board of directors also includes Elliott Abrams, whose record runs from the Iran/Contra affair in the ’80s to the Trump administration’s effort to overthrow the Venezuelan government. He also happens to be a signatory to the Project for a New American Century, co-founded by Victoria Nuland's neocon husband Robert Kagan! Then there are the wikileaks revelations about years of NATO Ukraine propaganda influencing public opinion with $8.5m worth of NATO pamphlets/postcards/TV debates/Monthly TV Programs/Regional Conferences/NATO HQ visits for journalists/NGO reps/NATO centers at Universities and Polling. Another missed point is the U.S. strategy to open Ukrainian markets to foreign investors and give control of its economy to giant multinational corporations. After early steps to integrate with the West, Ukrainian President Yanukovych turned against these changes and ended trade integration talks with the EU. Months before his overthrow, he restarted economic negotiations with Russia, in a major snub to the Western economic sphere. The IMF had long planned to implement a series of economic reforms to make the country more attractive to investors. The reforms included cutting wage controls (i.e., lowering wages), reforming and reducing health and education sectors (which made up the bulk of employment in Ukraine), and cutting natural gas subsidies to Ukrainian citizens that made energy affordable to the general public. Coup plotters like Nuland repeatedly stressed the need for the Ukrainian government to enact the “necessary” reforms. After the installation of the new puppet government they quickly restarted the EU deal. After cutting heating subsidies in half, it secured a $27 billion commitment from the IMF. My thoughts on the Chechens and Wagner Group that you and stuart1974 allude to. If involved (I'm yet to see much evidence provided here) I agree with Stuart they are just as distasteful, and as I said before, "ANYONE guilty of crimes should be held to account." The Wagner group are reportedly financed by Yevgeny Prigozhin and interestingly it was alleged previously funded by the UAE, another despotic regime. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 8, 2022 15:08:02 GMT
”Overthrow of a democratically elected government” Viktor Yanukovych was implicated in the vote rigging of the 2006 election and the subsequent poisoning of his political rival. Then upon gaining office he sought to amend the constitution without the assent of the Ukrainian people to block any chance of joining NATO and the EU. He was then after years of corruption, press censorship and going back on his promises, impeached from office by that same “democratically elected” parliament after fleeing to the Kremlin and seeking the protection of Vladimir Putin. The same man who is now seeking to supplant the current democratically Ukrainian government with a man who he has more influence over. Or has all that escaped you? Please don’t talk to me about ignorance either. I’ve acknowledged that there are parts of Ukraines war effort that no government would want any ties to in peace time. You are yet to comment on the army of human rights abusers, mercenaries and young conscripts Putin has unleashed on the innocent people of Ukraine. Sorry for the delay in replying, I've an extremely busy day. For a start, Yanukovych wasn't impeached in accordance with the Constitution. The rest are assertions without evidence. There is a lengthy procedure of impeachment which must be followed if a president is to be removed from power before the end of his term of office without violating the Constitution. The British Government lied to Parliament in saying that Yanukovych was impeached and removed from power in accordance with the Constitution. I'm not usually a fan of the Huffington Post, but a blog post by the author David Morrison does a good job of explaining the details of why it was unconstitutional here: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-morrison/president-yanukovych_b_7647102.htmlWhat you also seem to be ignoring is the U.S. fueling anti-government sentiment through mechanisms like the National Endowment for Democracy who trained activists, supported 'journalists' and funded business groups. (“doing in public what the CIA used to do in private”, as the Washington Post‘s David Ignatius once wrote.) As I previously highlighted, the National Endowment for Democracy president Carl Gershman wrote a piece in the Washington Post that described Ukraine as the “biggest prize” in the East/West rivalry. After the Obama administration, Nuland joined the National Endowment for Democracy board of directors before returning to the State Department in the Biden administration as undersecretary of state for political affairs. The National Endowment for Democracy board of directors also includes Elliott Abrams, whose record runs from the Iran/Contra affair in the ’80s to the Trump administration’s effort to overthrow the Venezuelan government. He also happens to be a signatory to the Project for a New American Century, co-founded by Victoria Nuland's neocon husband Robert Kagan! Then there are the wikileaks revelations about years of NATO Ukraine propaganda influencing public opinion with $8.5m worth of NATO pamphlets/postcards/TV debates/Monthly TV Programs/Regional Conferences/NATO HQ visits for journalists/NGO reps/NATO centers at Universities and Polling. Another missed point is the U.S. strategy to open Ukrainian markets to foreign investors and give control of its economy to giant multinational corporations. After early steps to integrate with the West, Ukrainian President Yanukovych turned against these changes and ended trade integration talks with the EU. Months before his overthrow, he restarted economic negotiations with Russia, in a major snub to the Western economic sphere. The IMF had long planned to implement a series of economic reforms to make the country more attractive to investors. The reforms included cutting wage controls (i.e., lowering wages), reforming and reducing health and education sectors (which made up the bulk of employment in Ukraine), and cutting natural gas subsidies to Ukrainian citizens that made energy affordable to the general public. Coup plotters like Nuland repeatedly stressed the need for the Ukrainian government to enact the “necessary” reforms. After the installation of the new puppet government they quickly restarted the EU deal. After cutting heating subsidies in half, it secured a $27 billion commitment from the IMF. My thoughts on the Chechens and Wagner Group that you and stuart1974 allude to. If involved (I'm yet to see much evidence provided here) I agree with Stuart they are just as distasteful, and as I said before, "ANYONE guilty of crimes should be held to account." The Wagner group are reportedly financed by Yevgeny Prigozhin and interestingly it was alleged previously funded by the UAE, another despotic regime. see my preceding post |
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Post by pirate on Mar 8, 2022 15:14:19 GMT
oldie I'll give the Tsygankov paper a look later when I've got more time.
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Post by yattongas on Mar 8, 2022 19:11:00 GMT
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