stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 21, 2024 8:24:04 GMT
I think the only way it will work along the lines you suggest Stu is to allow Ukraine into NATO,whilst Russia would be totally against this it would be an effective deterrent to future incursions as the Russian army is no match for a fully engaged NATO as long as Trump fully commits the US,Putin only understands strength he sees weakness as an opportunity to exploit. If we leave it to European countries to maintain a DMZ ,I fear there would be no collective response . I can't see NATO as an organisation being too willing to introduce a country at war into the agreement. That in itself is effectively a declaration of war and I feel that NATO prefers a role as deterrent rather than aggressor. Nato can't allow new members currently at war or holding territorial disputes. Ukraine can't join unless it signs a peace deal with Russia. At the moment there is little incentive for Russia to stop while it's willing to lose thousands (including North Koreans now) in a battle of attrition. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 21, 2024 8:27:49 GMT
I can't see NATO as an organisation being too willing to introduce a country at war into the agreement. That in itself is effectively a declaration of war and I feel that NATO prefers a role as deterrent rather than aggressor. NATO won't admit Ukraine whilst Russia is still attacking it - and that's basically been one of Putin's key aims since he invaded Crimea in 2014 (six years after NATO offered Ukraine a Membership Action Plan). No matter what land he gains/loses, a far more important aim for him is that Ukraine does not join NATO. That's what will be a key part of any further peace negotiations. We already know from the short-lived 2022 negotiations that Russia is potentially willing to discuss giving back the land they have recently gained in exchange for Ukraine's NATO membership being taken off the table for good. It looks pretty clear now the end game is not what land Russia keeps but what the political future of Ukraine is. Ukraine had to effectively disarm too, meaning Russia could attack a few years later with very little opposition. Russia tends to ignore treaties, no wonder Ukraine turned it down. Don't forget the Bucha and Irpin massacres, they will have given Ukraine a wake up call as to what could be coming. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 21, 2024 8:53:48 GMT
NATO won't admit Ukraine whilst Russia is still attacking it - and that's basically been one of Putin's key aims since he invaded Crimea in 2014 (six years after NATO offered Ukraine a Membership Action Plan). No matter what land he gains/loses, a far more important aim for him is that Ukraine does not join NATO. That's what will be a key part of any further peace negotiations. We already know from the short-lived 2022 negotiations that Russia is potentially willing to discuss giving back the land they have recently gained in exchange for Ukraine's NATO membership being taken off the table for good. It looks pretty clear now the end game is not what land Russia keeps but what the political future of Ukraine is. Ukraine had to effectively disarm too, meaning Russia could attack a few years later with very little opposition. Russia tends to ignore treaties, no wonder Ukraine turned it down. Don't forget the Bucha and Irpin massacres, they will have given Ukraine a wake up call as to what could be coming. I find this all pretty appalling,other Countries in the West pressuring a democratic Country not to do something to appease a vicious,despotic aggressor,if that's the path we are going down then god help us all. No one wants a widening of the War in Ukraine however, rewarding Putin will be a disaster for the west in the not too distant future,what does that say to China,etc. If it was us would we be happy for the US et al to tell us what we have to give up to achieve a phoney peace ?? |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 21, 2024 9:03:27 GMT
Ukraine had to effectively disarm too, meaning Russia could attack a few years later with very little opposition. Russia tends to ignore treaties, no wonder Ukraine turned it down. Don't forget the Bucha and Irpin massacres, they will have given Ukraine a wake up call as to what could be coming. I find this all pretty appalling,other Countries in the West pressuring a democratic Country not to do something to appease a vicious,despotic aggressor,if that's the path we are going down then god help us all. No one wants a widening of the War in Ukraine however, rewarding Putin will be a disaster for the west in the not too distant future,what does that say to China,etc. If it was us would we be happy for the US et al to tell us what we have to give up to achieve a phoney peace ?? Send money today or send our sons tomorrow. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 21, 2024 9:12:29 GMT
I find this all pretty appalling,other Countries in the West pressuring a democratic Country not to do something to appease a vicious,despotic aggressor,if that's the path we are going down then god help us all. No one wants a widening of the War in Ukraine however, rewarding Putin will be a disaster for the west in the not too distant future,what does that say to China,etc. If it was us would we be happy for the US et al to tell us what we have to give up to achieve a phoney peace ?? Send money today or send our sons tomorrow. Never a truer word said!! |
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Post by supergas on Nov 21, 2024 10:10:25 GMT
NATO won't admit Ukraine whilst Russia is still attacking it - and that's basically been one of Putin's key aims since he invaded Crimea in 2014 (six years after NATO offered Ukraine a Membership Action Plan). No matter what land he gains/loses, a far more important aim for him is that Ukraine does not join NATO. That's what will be a key part of any further peace negotiations. We already know from the short-lived 2022 negotiations that Russia is potentially willing to discuss giving back the land they have recently gained in exchange for Ukraine's NATO membership being taken off the table for good. It looks pretty clear now the end game is not what land Russia keeps but what the political future of Ukraine is. Ukraine had to effectively disarm too, meaning Russia could attack a few years later with very little opposition. Russia tends to ignore treaties, no wonder Ukraine turned it down. Don't forget the Bucha and Irpin massacres, they will have given Ukraine a wake up call as to what could be coming. In the same way Ukraine/the West could say their NATO accession was off the table, wait for the borders to reset and then fast-track it as privately as possible... |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 21, 2024 10:39:17 GMT
Ukraine had to effectively disarm too, meaning Russia could attack a few years later with very little opposition. Russia tends to ignore treaties, no wonder Ukraine turned it down. Don't forget the Bucha and Irpin massacres, they will have given Ukraine a wake up call as to what could be coming. In the same way Ukraine/the West could say their NATO accession was off the table, wait for the borders to reset and then fast-track it as privately as possible... Not with Hungary and Turkey needing to ratify the agreement. It'll never be kept secret. |
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