stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 22, 2022 12:39:47 GMT
The backstory to this is far more complex than that, don't fall for the Kremlin narrative and try and equate the two. That's why we're here discussing it. I know that no one is going to know what is really going on. We may find out in hindsight, or maybe not. All I know is similar things have happened in the last hundred years repeatedly but no one seems to acknowledge the links. First as tragedy, then as farce. Which links are you referring to? History does repeat itself, although more accurately it rhymes. After the First World War, Ukraine became an SSR in the Soviet Union, it had it's borders changed during that time. When the USSR dissolved to become 15 separate states, Ukraine was one of 4 to inherit nuclear weapons. It gave them up in return for security guarantees based on its existing territory. Fast forward to the late 2010s when parts of eastern Ukraine wanted to keep Russian ties while others wanted to look west. The then president was elected on a promise to build trade ties with the EU but immediately reneged. That prompted the protests which many were killed and the Ukrainian parliament to start impeachment proceedings. The president left, eventually ending up in Russia, parliament removed him from office in his absence and a new president elected. Putin then started assisting the separatist and war broke out. The leader himself stated that it would have fizzled out had they not received support. As the Ukrainian government and army couldn't do much, those right wing extremists them took things upon themselves. Then in 2014, Russia annexed Crimea and then more support for the separatists leaving 14,000 dead. |
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Post by oldie on Mar 22, 2022 20:59:35 GMT
Don't we live in an absolutist society already? You entirely rely on government. They rule everything, you couldn't exist without them. Given the choice, what system would you prefer? That was a stupid response by from Grover. Really, where do these people come from? |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2022 10:34:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 13:39:02 GMT
Don't we live in an absolutist society already? You entirely rely on government. They rule everything, you couldn't exist without them. Given the choice, what system would you prefer? People's Republic, socialiam, communism etc... Something along those lines. One where capital eugenics is not the predominant ideology for a start maybe. Have you heard of the end of history, f-u- k-u-yama? Had to add the hyphens due to banned words lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 13:40:05 GMT
Given the choice, what system would you prefer? That was a stupid response by from Grover. Really, where do these people come from? Oldie my friend, why kill the debate? Is anything you don't agree with stupid? That's quite an outlook on life. |
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Post by baggins on Mar 23, 2022 13:46:28 GMT
Back to topic, news, whatever you believe media wise, suggests it's still really not going well for the Russian war machine. Lack of fuel, lack of supplies, many Russian soldiers dead, major objectives not reached, sanctions kicking in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 13:46:52 GMT
That's why we're here discussing it. I know that no one is going to know what is really going on. We may find out in hindsight, or maybe not. All I know is similar things have happened in the last hundred years repeatedly but no one seems to acknowledge the links. First as tragedy, then as farce. Which links are you referring to? History does repeat itself, although more accurately it rhymes. After the First World War, Ukraine became an SSR in the Soviet Union, it had it's borders changed during that time. When the USSR dissolved to become 15 separate states, Ukraine was one of 4 to inherit nuclear weapons. It gave them up in return for security guarantees based on its existing territory. Fast forward to the late 2010s when parts of eastern Ukraine wanted to keep Russian ties while others wanted to look west. The then president was elected on a promise to build trade ties with the EU but immediately reneged. That prompted the protests which many were killed and the Ukrainian parliament to start impeachment proceedings. The president left, eventually ending up in Russia, parliament removed him from office in his absence and a new president elected. Putin then started assisting the separatist and war broke out. The leader himself stated that it would have fizzled out had they not received support. As the Ukrainian government and army couldn't do much, those right wing extremists them took things upon themselves. Then in 2014, Russia annexed Crimea and then more support for the separatists leaving 14,000 dead. Who said about it rhyming? I'd check it out. Yeah that's the liberal view on today's Ukraine for sure, not sure hundreds of years of their history can be summed up in a paragraph tho. Who gave Ukrainians their language and who tried to keep it forbidden? Were there brutal wars btwn Ukraine & a fascist Poland in recent history. Not a fan of geopolitics but there is so much that anyone would struggle to simplify it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 13:51:25 GMT
Back to topic, news, whatever you believe media wise, suggests it's still really not going well for the Russian war machine. Lack of fuel, lack of supplies, many Russian soldiers dead, major objectives not reached, sanctions kicking in. Yeah 8 years them planning a war and it's just showing how weak the Russian army really is. Western propaganda always had them as a mega threat and portrayed them a controlling American politics via twitter lol. A lot of their kit was old stock, and it was sent to attack Ukraine with very young soldiers in the first wave. |
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Post by baggins on Mar 23, 2022 14:08:54 GMT
Back to topic, news, whatever you believe media wise, suggests it's still really not going well for the Russian war machine. Lack of fuel, lack of supplies, many Russian soldiers dead, major objectives not reached, sanctions kicking in. Yeah 8 years them planning a war and it's just showing how weak the Russian army really is. Western propaganda always had them as a mega threat and portrayed them a controlling American politics via twitter lol. A lot of their kit was old stock, and it was sent to attack Ukraine with very young soldiers in the first wave. Not even sure any of their nuclear threat is up to much either, land based or submarine. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2022 14:39:46 GMT
Which links are you referring to? History does repeat itself, although more accurately it rhymes. After the First World War, Ukraine became an SSR in the Soviet Union, it had it's borders changed during that time. When the USSR dissolved to become 15 separate states, Ukraine was one of 4 to inherit nuclear weapons. It gave them up in return for security guarantees based on its existing territory. Fast forward to the late 2010s when parts of eastern Ukraine wanted to keep Russian ties while others wanted to look west. The then president was elected on a promise to build trade ties with the EU but immediately reneged. That prompted the protests which many were killed and the Ukrainian parliament to start impeachment proceedings. The president left, eventually ending up in Russia, parliament removed him from office in his absence and a new president elected. Putin then started assisting the separatist and war broke out. The leader himself stated that it would have fizzled out had they not received support. As the Ukrainian government and army couldn't do much, those right wing extremists them took things upon themselves. Then in 2014, Russia annexed Crimea and then more support for the separatists leaving 14,000 dead. Who said about it rhyming? I'd check it out. Yeah that's the liberal view on today's Ukraine for sure, not sure hundreds of years of their history can be summed up in a paragraph tho. Who gave Ukrainians their language and who tried to keep it forbidden? Were there brutal wars btwn Ukraine & a fascist Poland in recent history. Not a fan of geopolitics but there is so much that anyone would struggle to simplify it. Depends on how far back you want to go. A line has to be drawn at some point and either way you try and look at this, Ukraine was never a threat to Russia. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2022 14:41:27 GMT
Yeah 8 years them planning a war and it's just showing how weak the Russian army really is. Western propaganda always had them as a mega threat and portrayed them a controlling American politics via twitter lol. A lot of their kit was old stock, and it was sent to attack Ukraine with very young soldiers in the first wave. Not even sure any of their nuclear threat is up to much either, land based or submarine. Their navy is more of a threat to their own sailors but I'd rather not take the chance with their nuclear arsenal. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 23, 2022 15:15:14 GMT
Back to topic, news, whatever you believe media wise, suggests it's still really not going well for the Russian war machine. Lack of fuel, lack of supplies, many Russian soldiers dead, major objectives not reached, sanctions kicking in. Yeah 8 years them planning a war and it's just showing how weak the Russian army really is. Western propaganda always had them as a mega threat and portrayed them a controlling American politics via twitter lol. A lot of their kit was old stock, and it was sent to attack Ukraine with very young soldiers in the first wave. It's not just the west though, you only need to look at the May Day Parades. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 19:04:39 GMT
Yeah 8 years them planning a war and it's just showing how weak the Russian army really is. Western propaganda always had them as a mega threat and portrayed them a controlling American politics via twitter lol. A lot of their kit was old stock, and it was sent to attack Ukraine with very young soldiers in the first wave. It's not just the west though, you only need to look at the May Day Parades. I have no idea about there parade, a dick measuring contest? The only stats that are important is how many innocent people the armies directly or indirectly kill, UK & US doing a worldie job there. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 25, 2022 15:49:50 GMT
Oops 😬
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Post by yattongas on Mar 27, 2022 10:20:58 GMT
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Post by baggins on Mar 27, 2022 13:53:20 GMT
The question is, how does Putin accept failure? Does he continue with the threat of Nuclear or disappear with his billions to a friendly Country?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 27, 2022 19:11:53 GMT
The question is, how does Putin accept failure? Does he continue with the threat of Nuclear or disappear with his billions to a friendly Country? I can't see him ordering a withdrawal back to pre invasion lines but what the Ukrainians have done and how poorly the Russian forces have been will definitely cause a reassessment of their aims. At the start I thought their plan was to dominate the east with a land border through to Crimea, that was probably wrong as it seems a forced replacement of the government with a 'friendly' one was Plan A and my original thoughts may become the default Plan B. Despite their successes, it's not going to be quick or easy (probably unlikely too) that the Ukrainian forces can push them back entirely and in order to prevent too many more deaths, Putin will need some sort of opportunity to climb down and show the Russian people he "won". He certainly won't be able to retire, Russia has become a kleptocracy and he'll be in charge for some time yet (health and coups allowing). I've seen a few suggestions that if Putin does get replaced, the infighting may even lead to the partial break up of Russia itself. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 27, 2022 23:02:10 GMT
So not Nato expansion or denazification, then?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 9:11:40 GMT
So not Nato expansion or denazification, then? The Azov nazis were wiped out in mariupol on Thursday/Friday weren't they? The narrative has changed almost immediately. Genuine War seems to start due numerous reasons, making denazification a priority was Russia's way of limiting future reprisals against Ukrainian troops. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 28, 2022 9:39:49 GMT
So not Nato expansion or denazification, then? The Azov nazis were wiped out in mariupol on Thursday/Friday weren't they? The narrative has changed almost immediately. Genuine War seems to start due numerous reasons, making denazification a priority was Russia's way of limiting future reprisals against Ukrainian troops. Do you have a link for that? |
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