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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 13:33:58 GMT
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Post by lastminutewinner on Sept 9, 2023 13:33:58 GMT
As we all know the gas don't start playing until after Christmas and the new year. Signing JCH would have been a waste of time. Signing him in January though would be a whole different ball game. Exactly when we stopped playing this year |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 13:43:01 GMT
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Post by oldie on Sept 9, 2023 13:43:01 GMT
"Yes, it hasn't been smooth sailing but the approach the board has taken means the stand will be built as quickly as it possibly could have been." That made me laugh out loud. An approach which fundamentally ignored the realities of the BCC planning processes, perhaps even the rules? Let's not even talk about timings. Nor PR management, nor fan engagement. I cannot work out whether this growing catalogue of errors is due to arrogance, stupidity or incompetence. Whether it be the new stand, JCH transfer saga, season ticket delay or shirt branding. It is tedious to have these issues being discussed time and time again, but who exactly is causing these issues? It's not the fans, is it. Then we get extolled to shut up and just get behind the team, on the false premise that to be critical is to not be "behind the team" Which of course is complete bo**ox. Then there is the divine Mr Barton whose teams, under his direction, have barely won a home game since the beginning of 2023. Dare we be critical of that. Still, the escape from this grim reality is at kick off at any given game when optimism rules, nourished by a couple of Thatchers on board. Short lived, invariably, as that maybe. "That made me laugh out loud. An approach which fundamentally ignored the realities of the BCC planning processes, perhaps even the rules?" No it didn't. We haven't done anything that is outside the rules. The only reason it was delayed was because of the meddling of councillor Edwards. I'm glad the club had ambition to just get it built. If we would have gone through a long winded, consult with the residents etc we would still be waiting for it in 5 years time. I do agree that it was wrong to sell tickets for it before it was built. We don't know if JCH situation was down to us. I'll give you there are small things we could have done better but that is not unique in the running of football clubs or businesses in general. I'm not one who would say don't question thing and blindly support the team but I think all has been said on this thread that needs to be said. Nothing is going to change, no one is going to be sacked so what is the point in carrying on discussing it. You're not going to agree with me and I'm not going to agree with you. That's why I say let's just all move on. ". I'm glad the club had ambition to just get it built. If we would have gone through a long winded, consult with the residents etc we would still be waiting for it in 5 years time" That's not what happened with previous applications to develop the Mem. We did it properly and the plans were approved without undue delay. When residents complain that development has commenced without formal approval then their representatives are duty bound to respond. Similarly when the same people who advised on those Mem development proposals led the way on the application to develop a new stand (in fact the whole ground) at Rodney Parade at Newport, that was approved without undue delay and built. It seems quite apparent to me that the current incarnation of BRFC directors and executive are either incompetent or do not actually know what they are doing. Either way it's not a good look |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 13:43:50 GMT
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Post by oldie on Sept 9, 2023 13:43:50 GMT
As we all know the gas don't start playing until after Christmas and the new year. Signing JCH would have been a waste of time. Signing him in January though would be a whole different ball game. Exactly when we stopped playing this year Details, details....😂😂 |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 13:59:11 GMT
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 9, 2023 13:59:11 GMT
We don't know 2 of the 3 we f'd up. On JCH we don't know the reason why it went wrong. It may have been nothing to do with us. On the stand, how have we f'd up? Would it have been better the board planned to do this next summer? Yes, it hasn't been smooth sailing but the approach the board has taken means the stand will be built as quickly as it possibly could have been. In my book that is a success and I like that approach. Why do some supporters always seem to jump on the most negative take on every situation and indulge in a rovers flagellation. 1. Yes we do. We didn't get the paperwork in on time and didn't request an extension of 15 mins. Now go back and read the previous 150 pages again. 2. The correct approach would have been: Get planning permission before taking down the stand that was already there. Not sell season tickets for the new stand before the thing has been built Avoid Football league fines due to not having 200 seats for away fans Liaise with the local authorities and local residents at the same time as putting in the planning permission request. When making the planning request, do the correct paperwork. You get the gist. 1. No you don't know that. That's what we've been told. You don't know it's true. 2. "Get planning permission before taking down the stand that was already there". I disagree. If we leave the old one up it's less pressure on the council to get a move on. "Not sell season tickets for the new stand before the thing has been built" I do agree with that. The club shouldn't have done this and it is a shoddy way to treat those fans. "Avoid Football league fines due to not having 200 seats for away fans" Have we incurred a fine? If so will it be more than made up for by the additional money we make when the new stand is open? "Liaise with the local authorities and local residents at the same time as putting in the planning permission request." I'm glad they didn't liaise with local residents. Where has that got us in the past? The residents will try every trick in the book to delay and obstruct. As for the local authorities I'd be pretty certain they were liaising with them. Labour and Marvin seems completely on our side. "When making the planning request, do the correct paperwork". Ah, this old chestnut. This was put about by the councillor who is objecting to what we are doing. There is no evidence that that was the case at all. "You get the gist." Nota at all. I'm going to disagree with you and you will with me. I guess what irritates me is fans who seem to always assume we have done something wrong. I don't know what happened with JCH (and neither does anyone else not connected with it) so can't pass any judgement. I do know that the only reason the stand is taking so long is a councillor decided to call it in. I'll go back to my point i made about 5 pages ago, what is the point of carrying on with this thread. Nothing new is going to be discussed. everyone has decided their position. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 14:07:07 GMT
Post by wertongas on Sept 9, 2023 14:07:07 GMT
IMO if we don't sign a Free Agent CF by mid October, we will end up agreeing JCH return in December effective from 1st Jan. If JB is still with us in December and we are struggling to score goals it wouldn't suprise me at all if we don't have an agreement to sign him on January 1st, Wael asked the new owners if they were happy to spend 1 million on JCH and they said yes. So they don't seem fussed about splashing the cash . It is because of rich Arabs and Russians thet we have an inflated transfer market in this country. Wealthy owners prepared to spend millions on players, well above there market value to get success. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 14:09:35 GMT
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 9, 2023 14:09:35 GMT
"That made me laugh out loud. An approach which fundamentally ignored the realities of the BCC planning processes, perhaps even the rules?" No it didn't. We haven't done anything that is outside the rules. The only reason it was delayed was because of the meddling of councillor Edwards. I'm glad the club had ambition to just get it built. If we would have gone through a long winded, consult with the residents etc we would still be waiting for it in 5 years time. I do agree that it was wrong to sell tickets for it before it was built. We don't know if JCH situation was down to us. I'll give you there are small things we could have done better but that is not unique in the running of football clubs or businesses in general. I'm not one who would say don't question thing and blindly support the team but I think all has been said on this thread that needs to be said. Nothing is going to change, no one is going to be sacked so what is the point in carrying on discussing it. You're not going to agree with me and I'm not going to agree with you. That's why I say let's just all move on. ". I'm glad the club had ambition to just get it built. If we would have gone through a long winded, consult with the residents etc we would still be waiting for it in 5 years time" That's not what happened with previous applications to develop the Mem. We did it properly and the plans were approved without undue delay. When residents complain that development has commenced without formal approval then their representatives are duty bound to respond. Similarly when the same people who advised on those Mem development proposals led the way on the application to develop a new stand (in fact the whole ground) at Rodney Parade at Newport, that was approved without undue delay and built. It seems quite apparent to me that the current incarnation of BRFC directors and executive are either incompetent or do not actually know what they are doing. Either way it's not a good look Did the new stadium get built and how long did it take getting approval? Every time Rovers have tried to do something at the Mem a local campaign group is set up to do all they can to stop any development. the greens seem to be happy to jump on board with the locals and make our life as difficult as possible. "When residents complain that development has commenced without formal approval then their representatives are duty bound to respond." Exactly, even if they are spurious complaints that are made without evidence or understanding of the proposed development. Rovers didn't need any formal approval to start work. It is at our risk. Newport is Newport. We are in Bristol where we do as much as we can to prevent any development of anywhere. "It seems quite apparent to me that the current incarnation of BRFC directors and executive are either incompetent or do not actually know what they are doing." I disagree. I have full trust in our owners, they seem to be doing pretty well for people who don't know what they are doing. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:12:12 GMT
Post by wertongas on Sept 9, 2023 15:12:12 GMT
From what has been said and apologies from our football club we appear to be the one's most to blame for this fiasco. In view of that the club should honour the fee and agreement and sign JCH on the 1st January 2024. The clubs cock- up has let down fans , Darran McAntony (although some maybe not to botherd about that) and JCH who has family in Bristol and was keen on coming back here. Fair enough we could have got him for a cheaper fee in January, but we intended signing now for more money and should stick to that. Sorry but this is absolute nonsense. Why on earth would we pay the same fee for a player who’ll be in the last 6 months of his contract , might not even being playing regularly for them and will be six months older ? That would be madness and massively wasteful. If McAntony is such a shrewd operator, why did he let this go down to the line with just a few hrs left ? He got greedy ,that’s why and wanted to screw us . It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:15:44 GMT
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Post by gashead79 on Sept 9, 2023 15:15:44 GMT
Sorry but this is absolute nonsense. Why on earth would we pay the same fee for a player who’ll be in the last 6 months of his contract , might not even being playing regularly for them and will be six months older ? That would be madness and massively wasteful. If McAntony is such a shrewd operator, why did he let this go down to the line with just a few hrs left ? He got greedy ,that’s why and wanted to screw us . It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions Our new owners have invested 20m to improve the squad? 😄 How much is the whole club worth? Probably way less than that. |
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Post by gasify on Sept 9, 2023 15:31:36 GMT
1. Yes we do. We didn't get the paperwork in on time and didn't request an extension of 15 mins. Now go back and read the previous 150 pages again. 2. The correct approach would have been: Get planning permission before taking down the stand that was already there. Not sell season tickets for the new stand before the thing has been built Avoid Football league fines due to not having 200 seats for away fans Liaise with the local authorities and local residents at the same time as putting in the planning permission request. When making the planning request, do the correct paperwork. You get the gist. 1. No you don't know that. That's what we've been told. You don't know it's true. 2. "Get planning permission before taking down the stand that was already there". I disagree. If we leave the old one up it's less pressure on the council to get a move on. "Not sell season tickets for the new stand before the thing has been built" I do agree with that. The club shouldn't have done this and it is a shoddy way to treat those fans. "Avoid Football league fines due to not having 200 seats for away fans" Have we incurred a fine? If so will it be more than made up for by the additional money we make when the new stand is open? "Liaise with the local authorities and local residents at the same time as putting in the planning permission request." I'm glad they didn't liaise with local residents. Where has that got us in the past? The residents will try every trick in the book to delay and obstruct. As for the local authorities I'd be pretty certain they were liaising with them. Labour and Marvin seems completely on our side. "When making the planning request, do the correct paperwork". Ah, this old chestnut. This was put about by the councillor who is objecting to what we are doing. There is no evidence that that was the case at all. "You get the gist." Nota at all. I'm going to disagree with you and you will with me. I guess what irritates me is fans who seem to always assume we have done something wrong. I don't know what happened with JCH (and neither does anyone else not connected with it) so can't pass any judgement. I do know that the only reason the stand is taking so long is a councillor decided to call it in. I'll go back to my point i made about 5 pages ago, what is the point of carrying on with this thread. Nothing new is going to be discussed. everyone has decided their position. We have been told by Peterborough that we didn't get the paperwork in on time. We have been told by Bristol Rovers that "This morning an EFL representative confirmed that our contract application for Jonson Clarke-Harris was rejected." Why would the EFL reject our contract application? It can only be one of two things. It was either submitted incorrectly or submitted late. I would rather take the information from two parties to the deal and believe what has been said. The EFL rejected the application, Peterborough say it was submitted late. Bristol Rovers haven't actually said why it was rejected. This silence has started a whole heap of questions/conspiracies as to whether Bristol Rovers wanted to do the deal. Rovers should have just said the reason why it was rejected. I am happy to believe what two sources tell me that are in opposite camps. I have taken the information offered from both sides, why would you not believe both parties? We could get into some sort of existential discussion about what is truth, is that where you are going with this? 2. "Get planning permission before taking down the stand that was already there". I disagree. If we leave the old one up it's less pressure on the council to get a move on.Why would this add pressure to the council? They don't give a flying if it was built or not, I can't see how taking it down has put pressure on BCC. It has put pressure on the football club, definitely. "Avoid Football league fines due to not having 200 seats for away fans" Have we incurred a fine?No, we haven't incurred a fine due to the temporary stand that was in place for the Lincoln game. We will need to keep using that temporary stand for future home games until the South stand is in place. We would be able to use the South Stand for away fans but my understanding is that there will need to be a couple of test events before it is fully operational. How much do you think it is to hire that stand? £2k? "If so will it be more than made up for by the additional money we make when the new stand is open?"This is an interesting point. As a Thatchers end season ticket holder, I thought the Thatchers end was pretty empty for the Lincoln game. We put it down to people still being on holiday. We had a crowd of 10,086 for the final game of last season. this season we have had: Barnsley - 7927 (8816) Wycombe - 7951 (8533) Lincoln - 7674 (8078) Last season attendance in brackets. So, without the South Stand as it was. We seem to be losing around 500 fans, £20 each? So £10k a game? Once the South Stand is built, lets say for the Fleetwood game 8829 is the number to beat from last season. Otherwise, they should have kept the tent stand up until starting to build. "Liaise with the local authorities and local residents at the same time as putting in the planning permission request. I'm glad they didn't liaise with local residents. Where has that got us in the past?"Um. Didn't it get us planning permission to completely redevelop the stadium? bristolroversmemorabilia.weebly.com/the-mem-redevelopment.htmlIts pretty good resource as to historic ground stuff. I also recommend viewing is not for the faint hearted as there are pages of What could have been :-(. ""When making the planning request, do the correct paperwork". Ah, this old chestnut. This was put about by the councillor who is objecting to what we are doing. There is no evidence that that was the case at all."OK, you are right. There is no evidence for this. There is a section here on the Bristol Post that has a time line on it (in two minds if this is trust worthy or not) www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/huge-support-bristol-rovers-plan-8677192We announced the stand to the fans on the 28th April www.bristolrovers.co.uk/news/2023/april/south-stand/Then in late June BCC formally register the application. Whether this was due to an issue with the original application process, or Bristol City Council shafting us, I'm not sure we know. There has been mention of BNP Paribas helping us with the application process, I couldn't tell you if that was true or not. "I guess what irritates me is fans who seem to always assume we have done something wrong."Well, they do when on the 'balance of probabilities' they have. 'balance of probabilities' is what makes us all different, we have different views on thing. Not wanting to harp on about domestic violence, but for me, the balance of probabilities in my mind points to he did it. I really appreciate the backing of the club at all times. Its fantastic, however we do need some accountability. Otherwise there is a chance we might no longer have a club to support. "I'll go back to my point i made about 5 pages ago, what is the point of carrying on with this thread. Nothing new is going to be discussed. everyone has decided their position."So, you don't need to respond. Its ok that you find the thread has nothing new to be discussed. However others disagree. If others want to carry on, then that is just freedom of speech which we should all be proud of that we have. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:32:05 GMT
Post by wertongas on Sept 9, 2023 15:32:05 GMT
It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions Our new owners have invested 20m to improve the squad? 😄 How much is the whole club worth? Probably way less than that. They paid 20 million for a 55 % purchase of the club , Wael paid 20 million to pay off our debts and start construction of the training ground. Makes you wonder why we are not further up the league hopefully things will improve. There has been alot of money sunk into this club in recent years. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 9, 2023 15:44:35 GMT
What's your source for the new owners investing £20m to buy 55% of the club's shares?
Plus what extra money was spent on the squad this summer compared to last summer when we bought Connolly and McCormick for around £400K/£500K? This summer we only paid a fee for Taylor?
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:45:12 GMT
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Post by gasify on Sept 9, 2023 15:45:12 GMT
Sorry but this is absolute nonsense. Why on earth would we pay the same fee for a player who’ll be in the last 6 months of his contract , might not even being playing regularly for them and will be six months older ? That would be madness and massively wasteful. If McAntony is such a shrewd operator, why did he let this go down to the line with just a few hrs left ? He got greedy ,that’s why and wanted to screw us . It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions Only rag bag Rovers can come out of a transfer window where they had an offer accepted for purchasing a player that was double our transfer record, but still come out of the whole thing looking like rag bag Rovers. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:47:59 GMT
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Post by lastminutewinner on Sept 9, 2023 15:47:59 GMT
It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions Only rag bag Rovers can come out of a transfer window where they had an offer accepted for purchasing a player that was double our transfer record, but still come out of the whole thing looking like rag bag Rovers. Yup. Deadline day we threatened to smash our record transfer fee paid, but ended up with a fee for Loft and a reduced wage bill |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 9, 2023 15:49:52 GMT
It is only four more months than if we got him now. Anyway you pays your money and takes your chioce , thing is reportadly Derby, Bolton and Wrexham were also instrested in JCH but pulled out , despite all the conspiracy theories on hear it may be we are simply the only club in the lower divisions than can afford him . The new co owners invested 20 million in the club, if it is true what at least one reporter said and this money is to be used for improving the squad, there are certainly signs this could be true. I get a feeling many gasheads can't get their heads around the fact we are no more rag bag Rovers , but are a club that to some extent have money to burn , for the first time since I have been following the club anyway. I think some of us need to come to terms with our new found wealth. ivisionvisions Our new owners have invested 20m to improve the squad? 😄 How much is the whole club worth? Probably way less than that. Pretty certain Blackpool was sold for less than £15m, that included a reasonable stadium including a hotel and Championship/top 6 L1 side. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 15:56:38 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 9, 2023 15:56:38 GMT
Our new owners have invested 20m to improve the squad? 😄 How much is the whole club worth? Probably way less than that. They paid 20 million for a 55 % purchase of the club , Wael paid 20 million to pay off our debts and start construction of the training ground. Makes you wonder why we are not further up the league hopefully things will improve. There has been alot of money sunk 0into this club in recent years. They purchased 55% of the shares in Dwane Sport and being a private company we don't know how much they paid, that is between Wael, Samir and the new guys. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 9, 2023 16:04:11 GMT
They paid 20 million for a 55 % purchase of the club , Wael paid 20 million to pay off our debts and start construction of the training ground. Makes you wonder why we are not further up the league hopefully things will improve. There has been alot of money sunk 0into this club in recent years. They purchased 55% of the shares in Dwane Sport and being a private company we don't know how much they paid, that is between Wael, Samir and the new guys. WertonGas is quoting £20m, so I assume he got the figure from somewhere, don't forget he claims to be in regular contact with TG. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 16:06:49 GMT
Post by yattongas on Sept 9, 2023 16:06:49 GMT
They purchased 55% of the shares in Dwane Sport and being a private company we don't know how much they paid, that is between Wael, Samir and the new guys. WertonGas is quoting £20m, so I assume he got the figure from somewhere, don't forget he claims to be in regular contact with TG. Wasn’t the £20m written in the Bristol post ( or the online version)? |
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Post by wertongas on Sept 9, 2023 16:56:00 GMT
WertonGas is quoting £20m, so I assume he got the figure from somewhere, don't forget he claims to be in regular contact with TG. Wasn’t the £20m written in the Bristol post ( or the online version)? The approx 20 million Wael put in to pay off our debts and pay for the training ground came from the above mentioned source , as you say the 20 million the new investors came from the post and others online. That is probably about right as if you wanted to buy a controling share in a buisiness you would have exceed the existing owners investment. |
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Post by oldie on Sept 9, 2023 17:00:09 GMT
". I'm glad the club had ambition to just get it built. If we would have gone through a long winded, consult with the residents etc we would still be waiting for it in 5 years time" That's not what happened with previous applications to develop the Mem. We did it properly and the plans were approved without undue delay. When residents complain that development has commenced without formal approval then their representatives are duty bound to respond. Similarly when the same people who advised on those Mem development proposals led the way on the application to develop a new stand (in fact the whole ground) at Rodney Parade at Newport, that was approved without undue delay and built. It seems quite apparent to me that the current incarnation of BRFC directors and executive are either incompetent or do not actually know what they are doing. Either way it's not a good look Did the new stadium get built and how long did it take getting approval? Every time Rovers have tried to do something at the Mem a local campaign group is set up to do all they can to stop any development. the greens seem to be happy to jump on board with the locals and make our life as difficult as possible. "When residents complain that development has commenced without formal approval then their representatives are duty bound to respond." Exactly, even if they are spurious complaints that are made without evidence or understanding of the proposed development. Rovers didn't need any formal approval to start work. It is at our risk. Newport is Newport. We are in Bristol where we do as much as we can to prevent any development of anywhere. "It seems quite apparent to me that the current incarnation of BRFC directors and executive are either incompetent or do not actually know what they are doing." I disagree. I have full trust in our owners, they seem to be doing pretty well for people who don't know what they are doing. All of that just smacks of "blind faith" and zero knowledge or experience. Fair enough. |
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JCH
Sept 9, 2023 17:04:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Sept 9, 2023 17:04:02 GMT
Wasn’t the £20m written in the Bristol post ( or the online version)? The approx 20 million Wael put in to pay off our debts and pay for the training ground came from the above mentioned source , as you say the 20 million the new investors came from the post and others online. That is probably about right as if you wanted to buy a controling share in a buisiness you would have exceed the existing owners investment. Oh god You think? So, Earnings per Share=zero... Negative cash flow Asset less than shareholders capital employed... What exactly do you think a new shareholder is paying for? The mind boggles |
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