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Post by supergas on Sept 27, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
The South Stand is definitely a big improvement on what was there, nobody could argue that it isn't, is it a modern structure most football clubs would build, no. As we don't really know about the west developments yet, not sure if it will ever get rebuilt , but the East and north stand have to be something better than the south. Let's be honest, we are never going to move from the Mem site, the owners surely realise that, Wael didn't have the money to buy land and build, nor do the new owners it would seem. So building something that is going to stand time and look the part at the Mem is the only option. Planning permission was achived for big projets at The Mem and UWE. Return on investment is the key. Relaxation of planning restrictions on the training ground may help release funds.
Is the UWE Stadium site still available?
Dodged a bullet there I think. No chance to build anything other than the stadium - in fact we wouldn't even have owned the land the stadium would have been on. Everything outside would have been controlled and potentially monetised by someone else. Was it a good idea at the time? Potentially. Is it the right choice now? No. Let's not forget even after the Sainsburys decision (and the takeover) the new owners put a new plan to build the stadium there to UWE and UWE missed the deadline to reply. Chances are the new plan was sensible and fair for the club but took control away from UWE... |
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Post by ifollowgas on Sept 27, 2024 12:00:37 GMT
Planning permission was achived for big projets at The Mem and UWE. Return on investment is the key. Relaxation of planning restrictions on the training ground may help release funds.
Is the UWE Stadium site still available?
Dodged a bullet there I think. No chance to build anything other than the stadium - in fact we wouldn't even have owned the land the stadium would have been on. Everything outside would have been controlled and potentially monetised by someone else. Was it a good idea at the time? Potentially. Is it the right choice now? No. Let's not forget even after the Sainsburys decision (and the takeover) the new owners put a new plan to build the stadium there to UWE and UWE missed the deadline to reply. Chances are the new plan was sensible and fair for the club but took control away from UWE... The UWE stadium and adjacent car park with planning permission granted on a 100 year (probably extendable) lease with active collaboration of the forward-thinking UWE and South Gloucestershire Council was the best and probably last chance BRFC had to become a Championship standard football club with strong community links, a modern functional home to be proud of for this and future generations of Rovers fans. It's amazing that the Al Qadi family - who clearly ditched the project because they didn't want to invest the capital cost of the build in view of being able to recoup their cash in a future sale - convinced many supporters that the project 'wasn't right for the club' when clearly it was (Higgs & Co and the Dunfords thought so), but just not right for them. |
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Post by Feeling The Blues on Sept 27, 2024 13:06:52 GMT
Dodged a bullet there I think. No chance to build anything other than the stadium - in fact we wouldn't even have owned the land the stadium would have been on. Everything outside would have been controlled and potentially monetised by someone else. Was it a good idea at the time? Potentially. Is it the right choice now? No. Let's not forget even after the Sainsburys decision (and the takeover) the new owners put a new plan to build the stadium there to UWE and UWE missed the deadline to reply. Chances are the new plan was sensible and fair for the club but took control away from UWE... The UWE stadium and adjacent car park with planning permission granted on a 100 year (probably extendable) lease with active collaboration of the forward-thinking UWE and South Gloucestershire Council was the best and probably last chance BRFC had to become a Championship standard football club with strong community links, a modern functional home to be proud of for this and future generations of Rovers fans. It's amazing that the Al Qadi family - who clearly ditched the project because they didn't want to invest the capital cost of the build in view of being able to recoup their cash in a future sale - convinced many supporters that the project 'wasn't right for the club' when clearly it was (Higgs & Co and the Dunfords thought so), but just not right for them. Spot on. I really don't know where this stuff about the Al Qadi's putting a new plan to UWE and them missing a deadline has come from, certainly not UWE who announced at the time that they "had no idea why" Dwane Sports pulled the plug. The reason is simple, the Al Qadi's, as a family, were not committed to it nor the FC and either didn't want a long term return on investment or didn't want to tie up or have the capital to progress it. www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/uwe-no-idea-bristol-rovers-273283 |
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 27, 2024 14:04:10 GMT
The UWE stadium and adjacent car park with planning permission granted on a 100 year (probably extendable) lease with active collaboration of the forward-thinking UWE and South Gloucestershire Council was the best and probably last chance BRFC had to become a Championship standard football club with strong community links, a modern functional home to be proud of for this and future generations of Rovers fans. It's amazing that the Al Qadi family - who clearly ditched the project because they didn't want to invest the capital cost of the build in view of being able to recoup their cash in a future sale - convinced many supporters that the project 'wasn't right for the club' when clearly it was (Higgs & Co and the Dunfords thought so), but just not right for them. Spot on. I really don't know where this stuff about the Al Qadi's putting a new plan to UWE and them missing a deadline has come from, certainly not UWE who announced at the time that they "had no idea why" Dwane Sports pulled the plug. The reason is simple, the Al Qadi's, as a family, were not committed to it nor the FC and either didn't want a long term return on investment or didn't want to tie up or have the capital to progress it. www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/uwe-no-idea-bristol-rovers-273283Or simply they just couldn't afford it. It seems a massive oversight on their behalf if they didn't do due diligence around the fine details the UWE deal before they bought the club. They were then busy telling us the landing lights were on and the Mem isn't sustainable. They couldn't have been that naïve. Something may have changed or they thought they could renegotiate with the UWE. Either way the club came out a loser from it. Having said that we do have to be grateful that the Al Qai's put 10s of millions into the club and kept us going. Bitter sweet really. |
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Post by chewbacca on Sept 27, 2024 14:31:52 GMT
Spot on. I really don't know where this stuff about the Al Qadi's putting a new plan to UWE and them missing a deadline has come from, certainly not UWE who announced at the time that they "had no idea why" Dwane Sports pulled the plug. The reason is simple, the Al Qadi's, as a family, were not committed to it nor the FC and either didn't want a long term return on investment or didn't want to tie up or have the capital to progress it. www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/uwe-no-idea-bristol-rovers-273283It seems a massive oversight on their behalf if they didn't do due diligence around the fine details the UWE deal before they bought the club. They were then busy telling us the landing lights were on and the Mem isn't sustainable. They couldn't have been that naïve. Something may have changed or they thought they could renegotiate with the UWE. Either way the club came out a loser from it. Having said that we do have to be grateful that the Al Qai's put 10s of millions into the club and kept us going. Bitter sweet really. Certainly never provided proof of funds. I mean that doesn't mean they couldn't afford it but it means they didn't provide evidence of it. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 27, 2024 14:52:40 GMT
Dodged a bullet there I think. No chance to build anything other than the stadium - in fact we wouldn't even have owned the land the stadium would have been on. Everything outside would have been controlled and potentially monetised by someone else. Was it a good idea at the time? Potentially. Is it the right choice now? No. Let's not forget even after the Sainsburys decision (and the takeover) the new owners put a new plan to build the stadium there to UWE and UWE missed the deadline to reply. Chances are the new plan was sensible and fair for the club but took control away from UWE... The UWE stadium and adjacent car park with planning permission granted on a 100 year (probably extendable) lease with active collaboration of the forward-thinking UWE and South Gloucestershire Council was the best and probably last chance BRFC had to become a Championship standard football club with strong community links, a modern functional home to be proud of for this and future generations of Rovers fans. It's amazing that the Al Qadi family - who clearly ditched the project because they didn't want to invest the capital cost of the build in view of being able to recoup their cash in a future sale - convinced many supporters that the project 'wasn't right for the club' when clearly it was (Higgs & Co and the Dunfords thought so), but just not right for them. I think you've made a bit of a leap there. It may have been right for Higgs/Dunford and not right for the AQs but we don't know if it was right for the club. There is just no way of knowing that. There are clubs that have benefited from a new stadium they dont own and there are some that gave up all their rights to income (Coventry for example) where it hasn't worked out so well. Maybe someone cleverer than me could explain how giving up the rights make income from a ground is worth it just to have a nice home to play games in. I would assume keeping as much revenue as possible would be better. I think Higgs had his heart set on getting us a shiny stadium and it clouded his judgement into thinking it was required at any cost. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 27, 2024 14:54:38 GMT
Or simply they just couldn't afford it. It seems a massive oversight on their behalf if they didn't do due diligence around the fine details the UWE deal before they bought the club. They were then busy telling us the landing lights were on and the Mem isn't sustainable. They couldn't have been that naïve. Something may have changed or they thought they could renegotiate with the UWE. Either way the club came out a loser from it. Having said that we do have to be grateful that the Al Qai's put 10s of millions into the club and kept us going. Bitter sweet really. Certainly never provided proof of funds. I mean that doesn't mean they couldn't afford it but it means they didn't provide evidence of it. If they felt at the time that giving up all revenue to UWE was a poor deal I guess they didn't feel the need to bother? |
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Post by chewbacca on Sept 27, 2024 15:02:11 GMT
Certainly never provided proof of funds. I mean that doesn't mean they couldn't afford it but it means they didn't provide evidence of it. If they felt at the time that giving up all revenue to UWE was a poor deal I guess they didn't feel the need to bother? I think there's a way to go about it. Stringing along one of the biggest companies in the region doesn't feel very clever for relationships going forward! I think the club would have benefited from being open and honest if they thought that was the case. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 27, 2024 15:07:38 GMT
If they felt at the time that giving up all revenue to UWE was a poor deal I guess they didn't feel the need to bother? I think there's a way to go about it. Stringing along one of the biggest companies in the region doesn't feel very clever for relationships going forward! I think the club would have benefited from being open and honest if they thought that was the case. Yeah, I don't disagree but I also feel UWE perhaps took advantage of Higgs need to deliver a stadium and I think they maybe thought they could take the club (regardless of the owners) for a ride. Obviously none of us really know, but it's my opinion that UWE were maybe a little greedy. |
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Post by heartofgas on Sept 27, 2024 15:51:57 GMT
Certainly never provided proof of funds. I mean that doesn't mean they couldn't afford it but it means they didn't provide evidence of it. If they felt at the time that giving up all revenue to UWE was a poor deal I guess they didn't feel the need to bother? I guess my point was they should have known the UWE was a bad deal for Rovers before buying the club and certainly before they were saying the landing lights were on. If they didn't then they aren't very good business men. But I can't believe they were that naive. It took over a year from when they bought the club to when they decided it was a dead deal. I guess it's all water under the bridge but I do think it was missed opportunity to make a step change in the clubs level of success. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 27, 2024 15:56:30 GMT
Wael was also seemingly hoodwinked into thinking the FM was a good deal but it didn't take the Al-Saeed's long to work out it was a non starter. Listening to Wael on the Reading FC podcast he does come across as a bit of a dreamer.
It's totally baffling how he can say clubs at our level don't need CEO's and DoF's when he always employed both of them, or at least employees in very similar roles, in recent years at the club.
It also seems the South/South West stands were is project so hopefully we'll see something better when the Al-Saeed's disclosed their plans for the new stands 🤞
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Post by A Source (aka Angry Badger) on Sept 27, 2024 16:14:37 GMT
Professor West
“For us the stadium was a really big part of the university’s future plans, not just for students, but for the local community through our outreach programmes and the wider South West economy"
So non matchday activities and revenue were for the benefit of UWE, not the club.
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Post by gasheadontour on Sept 27, 2024 20:02:50 GMT
Paying only a peppercorn rent for the 100 year lease and not having to purchase land from UWE would have saved a huge outlay so seems only fair UWE wanted a percentage of non matchday income.
Planning permission was given. If the land is still available then perhaps it's worth reopening talks?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Sept 27, 2024 20:38:08 GMT
Paying only a peppercorn rent for the 100 year lease and not having to purchase land from UWE would have saved a huge outlay so seems only fair UWE wanted a percentage of non matchday income. Planning permission was given. If the land is still available then perhaps it's worth reopening talks? That depends on the percentage. We currently pay no rent and have no lease and keep 100% of revenue. (By we, I mean ultimately the owners who finance the club) Sure, we could have doubled the gate and have a nice stadium but if UWE kept the money spent in and around the stadium then what was actually in it for us? Fag packet maths says if we doubled gates but only took 50% of match day income we would be no better off. 100 years is a long time to be tied in to having no additional income. Seems like a no brainer to turn it down. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 27, 2024 20:55:55 GMT
Paying only a peppercorn rent for the 100 year lease and not having to purchase land from UWE would have saved a huge outlay so seems only fair UWE wanted a percentage of non matchday income. Planning permission was given. If the land is still available then perhaps it's worth reopening talks? That depends on the percentage. We currently pay no rent and have no lease and keep 100% of revenue. (By we, I mean ultimately the owners who finance the club) Sure, we could have doubled the gate and have a nice stadium but if UWE kept the money spent in and around the stadium then what was actually in it for us? Fag packet maths says if we doubled gates but only took 50% of match day income we would be no better off. 100 years is a long time to be tied in to having no additional income. Seems like a no brainer to turn it down. It's all guess work what we would and wouldn't be able to use the ground for on non match days and what income we received on match days, as things stand we own the Mem but are losing upwards of £4m a season, without a wealthy benefactor that can't be feasible in the long term. NH was no mug so surely he wouldn't have agreed to even the basics of a deal with the UWE if it wasn't feasible and you can only assume Wael/the ALQ's also thought it was feasible when they bought the club and subsequently entered into talks (twice?) with the UWE. I'm surprised the Al Saaed's have never considered returning to the UWE to see if any deal can now be agreed. I understand the land still hasn't been developed and there seems a convenient on the land restricting what can be built, so surely any income is better than no income for the UWE? Although why nobody has approached the Arena developers to see if something can be built there is a mystery, as if the owners are now considering rebuilding the two stands it could well be both easier and less expensive to just build a new ground somewhere away from the Mem, the FM site development seems to have gone very quite since we pulled out. |
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Post by gasify on Sept 27, 2024 21:08:14 GMT
That depends on the percentage. We currently pay no rent and have no lease and keep 100% of revenue. (By we, I mean ultimately the owners who finance the club) Sure, we could have doubled the gate and have a nice stadium but if UWE kept the money spent in and around the stadium then what was actually in it for us? Fag packet maths says if we doubled gates but only took 50% of match day income we would be no better off. 100 years is a long time to be tied in to having no additional income. Seems like a no brainer to turn it down. It's all guess work what we would and wouldn't be able to use the ground for on non match days and what income we received on match days, as things stand we own the Mem but are losing upwards of £4m a season, without a wealthy benefactor that can't be feasible in the long term. NH was no mug so surely he wouldn't have agreed to even the basics of a deal with the UWE if it wasn't feasible and you can only assume Wael/the ALQ's also thought it was feasible when they bought the club and subsequently entered into talks (twice?) with the UWE. I'm surprised the Al Saaed's have never considered returning to the UWE to see if any deal can now be agreed. I understand the land still hasn't been developed and there seems a convenient on the land restricting what can be built, so surely any income is better than no income for the UWE? Although why nobody has approached the Arena developers to see if something can be built there is a mystery, as if the owners are now considering rebuilding the two stands it could well be both easier and less expensive to just build a new ground somewhere away from the Mem, the FM site development seems to have gone very quite since we pulled out. I see your "NH was no mug" and I raise you "Water tight case against Sainsburys". |
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Post by gasheadontour on Sept 27, 2024 22:26:42 GMT
Selling The Mem was to help cover the build cost of a new stadium at UWE with Rovers paying only a peppercorn rent to lease the land. Whereas redeveloping The Mem required borrowing a lot of money and the cost of servicing the debt. That's why it could have worked out as better value to have paid a percentage of non-matchday income to UWE for a new stadium than debt repayments to redevelop The Mem for an inferior stadium.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 28, 2024 5:12:01 GMT
It's all guess work what we would and wouldn't be able to use the ground for on non match days and what income we received on match days, as things stand we own the Mem but are losing upwards of £4m a season, without a wealthy benefactor that can't be feasible in the long term. NH was no mug so surely he wouldn't have agreed to even the basics of a deal with the UWE if it wasn't feasible and you can only assume Wael/the ALQ's also thought it was feasible when they bought the club and subsequently entered into talks (twice?) with the UWE. I'm surprised the Al Saaed's have never considered returning to the UWE to see if any deal can now be agreed. I understand the land still hasn't been developed and there seems a convenient on the land restricting what can be built, so surely any income is better than no income for the UWE? Although why nobody has approached the Arena developers to see if something can be built there is a mystery, as if the owners are now considering rebuilding the two stands it could well be both easier and less expensive to just build a new ground somewhere away from the Mem, the FM site development seems to have gone very quite since we pulled out. I see your "NH was no mug" and I raise you "Water tight case against Sainsburys". That's down to his legal team, I'm not sure anybody expects a football club owner to be a contracts expert, just keeping us solvent was his main task. |
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Post by gasify on Sept 28, 2024 6:28:36 GMT
I see your "NH was no mug" and I raise you "Water tight case against Sainsburys". That's down to his legal team, I'm not sure anybody expects a football club owner to be a contracts expert, just keeping us solvent was his main task. Not sure I agree. I've never met a legal team that will say the case is water tight. If the legal team had said that, they would be putting their professional indemnity on the line. When we went through the court process, the case was picked apart and it became very apparent there was a hole in the bucket, in fact several holes. We could have sued the legal team if they had been so adamant that taking the case to the High Court would give us the outcome we wanted. |
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Post by eric on Sept 28, 2024 7:12:36 GMT
Selling The Mem was to help cover the build cost of a new stadium at UWE with Rovers paying only a peppercorn rent to lease the land. Whereas redeveloping The Mem required borrowing a lot of money and the cost of servicing the debt. That's why it could have worked out as better value to have paid a percentage of non-matchday income to UWE for a new stadium than debt repayments to redevelop The Mem for an inferior stadium. None of us will ever know the figures and contract details but could it have just as easily been the case that with Sainsbury’s pulling out the cash we’d have had for the build was less (they seemed to have offered an inflated price) so we’d have been in a leased stadium with a sizeable debt and no additional income opportunities as they’d already all been claimed by UWE? |
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