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Post by mehewmagic on Dec 12, 2018 10:06:29 GMT
Im pro DC because I believe he’s the best man to AVOID relegation. Not because I think he will take us back up. In a way I agree with you and I’m also a massive DC fan and think he’s a legend for what he’s achieved but the thing that worries me is how much he’s let his problems with the board effect what he says and goes about things in the media and on the pitch , with the players etc. He seems unhappy and a shadow of himself and I think that’s why the teams performances are poor or at least a very big reason amongst others. I’d trust a DC firing on all cylinders to keep us up , even finish mid table but I’m worried I don’t know if the DC we’ve got right now can turn it around. It’s a shame because he’s got the biggest budget he’s ever had but let other things get in the way of his concentration, fair enough some might say and I’d agree that it appears he’s been lied to but ultimately his job is to pick the team and get that team playing and winning and he’s not doing that. Trouble is that this has been going on for years. The promises. The lack of clear plans. That is what gets him so down. He desparately wants success at Rovers, not some other club. It isn't just about budget. What if, purely for discussion purposes, Ellis was paid £3k a week. So, he leaves, and DC has £3k free in his budget. Great. But is he really likely to replace an integral part of team, on and off the pitch, for up to £3k a week (he may need to use some of that for other issues) and maybe a portion of the transfer fee? Maybe, but it's certainly a hard ask, and any player, of any quality or price, may take a while to settle in, both on and off the pitch and with systems and tactics. It's the churn of our best players that is the issue, and always has been, not necessarily just the budget.
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Post by Topper Gas on Dec 12, 2018 12:22:19 GMT
But isn't replacing your best players when they leave the same for every manager outside the top 4/5 sides in the Premiership? Walsall lost Oztumer on a free in the summer but, if anything, are doing better w/o him on probably with a lower wage & transfer budget than ours, Shrewsbury lost nearly an entire 1st team but are still above us in the table. In fact when did we last sign a decent CF from another club, from memory we've gone though Brunt, Cunnington (on loan), Blissett & Gaffney just since we dropped out of the league. Who thought either Payne or Bakayoko were suitable replacements for Harrison?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 12:47:55 GMT
But isn't replacing your best players when they leave the same for every manager outside the top 4/5 sides in the Premiership? Walsall lost Oztumer on a free in the summer but, if anything, are doing better w/o him on probably with a lower wage & transfer budget than ours, Shrewsbury lost nearly an entire 1st team but are still above us in the table. In fact when did we last sign a decent CF from another club, from memory we've gone though Brunt, Cunnington (on loan), Blissett & Gaffney just since we dropped out of the league. Who thought either Payne or Bakayoko were suitable replacements for Harrison? Exactly, I'm fed up of using that logic because no-one seems to listen and keeps banging on about selling best players like we are the ONLY club it happens to. Some seem to be bitrerly disappointed because they exoected us to be competing for promotion after selling Harrison Bodin and Taylor and that was never going to happen- but to use those players as an excuse for being in the relegation zone, well...being in the relegation zone is inexcusable. Even DC has said himself that his budget was competitive so we should really be putting this argument to bed unless anyone is going to accuse DC of telling lies about how much he has been given? He has underachieved this season, massively. He admits so himself. End of.
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Post by justin blue on Dec 12, 2018 13:19:38 GMT
I understand that we like all clubs have to sell assets something this club has done throughout the years. However in previous years it seemed that we sold when we were ready when we had players who could fill those positions. The problem we have is not that we have to sell to survive in common with all clubs in our position. The problem was we sold players when the cupboard was bare.
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Post by Topper Gas on Dec 12, 2018 13:40:28 GMT
I understand that we like all clubs have to sell assets something this club has done throughout the years. However in previous years it seemed that we sold when we were ready when we had players who could fill those positions. The problem we have is not that we have to sell to survive in common with all clubs in our position. The problem was we sold players when the cupboard was bare. Nobody replaced, Taylor or Bodin, we just got lucky BB started scoring from the wing, likewise we never really replaced Lambert or even Hoskins before them. Our scouting has been hopeless for years, even decades, it just seems luck to me if we get a player who fits in/is a success. What scouting had we done on Reilly for example given we've never signed any other Scottish league players for year?
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Post by baggins on Dec 12, 2018 13:43:33 GMT
I understand that we like all clubs have to sell assets something this club has done throughout the years. However in previous years it seemed that we sold when we were ready when we had players who could fill those positions. The problem we have is not that we have to sell to survive in common with all clubs in our position. The problem was we sold players when the cupboard was bare. Nobody replaced, Taylor or Bodin, we just got lucky BB started scoring from the wing, likewise we never really replaced Lambert or even Hoskins before them. Our scouting has been hopeless for years, even decades, it just seems luck to me if we get a player who fits in/is a success. What scouting had we done on Reilly for example given we've never signed any other Scottish league players for year? Forget Reilly, who found Nichols?
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Post by Topper Gas on Dec 12, 2018 14:20:39 GMT
Nobody replaced, Taylor or Bodin, we just got lucky BB started scoring from the wing, likewise we never really replaced Lambert or even Hoskins before them. Our scouting has been hopeless for years, even decades, it just seems luck to me if we get a player who fits in/is a success. What scouting had we done on Reilly for example given we've never signed any other Scottish league players for year? Forget Reilly, who found Nichols? Most likely MS, although at least he had played against us, and scored?
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Post by LJG on Dec 12, 2018 14:41:30 GMT
I understand that we like all clubs have to sell assets something this club has done throughout the years. However in previous years it seemed that we sold when we were ready when we had players who could fill those positions. The problem we have is not that we have to sell to survive in common with all clubs in our position. The problem was we sold players when the cupboard was bare. Nobody replaced, Taylor or Bodin, we just got lucky BB started scoring from the wing, likewise we never really replaced Lambert or even Hoskins before them. Our scouting has been hopeless for years, even decades, it just seems luck to me if we get a player who fits in/is a success. What scouting had we done on Reilly for example given we've never signed any other Scottish league players for year? You do have a bit of a downer on Reilly - I see he scored a brace for the reserves today. Jak on the scoresheet too ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 15:52:02 GMT
But isn't replacing your best players when they leave the same for every manager outside the top 4/5 sides in the Premiership? Walsall lost Oztumer on a free in the summer but, if anything, are doing better w/o him on probably with a lower wage & transfer budget than ours, Shrewsbury lost nearly an entire 1st team but are still above us in the table. In fact when did we last sign a decent CF from another club, from memory we've gone though Brunt, Cunnington (on loan), Blissett & Gaffney just since we dropped out of the league. Who thought either Payne or Bakayoko were suitable replacements for Harrison? Exactly, I'm fed up of using that logic because no-one seems to listen and keeps banging on about selling best players like we are the ONLY club it happens to. Some seem to be bitrerly disappointed because they exoected us to be competing for promotion after selling Harrison Bodin and Taylor and that was never going to happen- but to use those players as an excuse for being in the relegation zone, well...being in the relegation zone is inexcusable. Even DC has said himself that his budget was competitive so we should really be putting this argument to bed unless anyone is going to accuse DC of telling lies about how much he has been given? He has underachieved this season, massively. He admits so himself. End of. We're by no means the only club thatbhas to sell its best players. Nor are we the only club that has to replace them for less than the departing players were worth. That is the lot of the lower league club manager. However, it doesn't remove the fact that doing so makes the job that much harder and eventually will catch up with you, particularly when you sell as many good players as we have in a short space of time. Look at what we have sold since getting in to League 1 (not saying it was wrong they were sold, but the fact remains that they were): Taylor - worth to us a conservative £1m? Bodin - ditto. Harrison - worth to us a conservative 750k? Brown - worth to us a conservative 500k? Appreciate that these figures are subjective, but I've tried to be conservative with their valuations and it still amounts to over £3m of talent. We've replaced them with the following: Nichols - estimated £350k? Bennett - free (accepting there is no such thing but minimal expenditure nonetheless) Payne - estimated £200k? THD - appearance based so again, minimal cost. So we've replaced over £3m worth of players with something between half and three quarters of a millon. As I say, it's not exclusive to Rovers but surely it stands to reason that the quality will drop? It's just finally caught up with us. I still say though that we have enough quality to stay in this league, but the players and yes, the manager, have to perform better than they currently are. Lets just acknowledge the difficulty in doing so against such a background though.
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Post by Topper Gas on Dec 12, 2018 17:38:41 GMT
If what LB & DC said is correct in their interviews at the end of last season then the club made no attempts whatsoever to offer him a new contract. I sense you're trying to rewrite history by saying he was worth £500K, when in truth he was worth zero in the transfer market.
Walsall have seen both Etheridge and Oztumer leave on frees in recent seasons but are still doing OK.
Let's be honest we don't need a 20 goals a season super striker all we needed were strikers capable of scoring 10 goals each a season, not just 1 or 2 by January if if we're lucky. If you look at the strikers we've signed since DC took over only Taylor has got into double figures regularly, Bodin only joined as he was mates with Harrison, and Harrison was already at the club.I don't think the present recruitment set up at the club as a clue how to sign a decent striker. The list of failures is endless White, Gaffney, Telford, Mensah, Nichols, Reilly, Jakubiak, Payne.
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Post by knowall on Dec 12, 2018 17:47:18 GMT
Exactly, I'm fed up of using that logic because no-one seems to listen and keeps banging on about selling best players like we are the ONLY club it happens to. Some seem to be bitrerly disappointed because they exoected us to be competing for promotion after selling Harrison Bodin and Taylor and that was never going to happen- but to use those players as an excuse for being in the relegation zone, well...being in the relegation zone is inexcusable. Even DC has said himself that his budget was competitive so we should really be putting this argument to bed unless anyone is going to accuse DC of telling lies about how much he has been given? He has underachieved this season, massively. He admits so himself. End of. We're by no means the only club thatbhas to sell its best players. Nor are we the only club that has to replace them for less than the departing players were worth. That is the lot of the lower league club manager. However, it doesn't remove the fact that doing so makes the job that much harder and eventually will catch up with you, particularly when you sell as many good players as we have in a short space of time. Look at what we have sold since getting in to League 1 (not saying it was wrong they were sold, but the fact remains that they were): Taylor - worth to us a conservative £1m? Bodin - ditto. Harrison - worth to us a conservative 750k? Brown - worth to us a conservative 500k? Appreciate that these figures are subjective, but I've tried to be conservative with their valuations and it still amounts to over £3m of talent. We've replaced them with the following: Nichols - estimated £350k? Bennett - free (accepting there is no such thing but minimal expenditure nonetheless) Payne - estimated £200k? THD - appearance based so again, minimal cost. So we've replaced over £3m worth of players with something between half and three quarters of a millon. As I say, it's not exclusive to Rovers but surely it stands to reason that the quality will drop? It's just finally caught up with us. I still say though that we have enough quality to stay in this league, but the players and yes, the manager, have to perform better than they currently are. Lets just acknowledge the difficulty in doing so against such a background though. A very interesting subject - personally I would keep wherever possible a settled side, but I do not have to make the decisions and I do not envy DC who has, remember delivered TWO promotions. Which other league manager has done that recently? - not many! Good luck DC - I will support your decisions whatever they are - even though I have my own views.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 18:08:31 GMT
If what LB & DC said is correct in their interviews at the end of last season then the club made no attempts whatsoever to offer him a new contract. I sense you're trying to rewrite history by saying he was worth £500K, when in truth he was worth zero in the transfer market. Walsall have seen both Etheridge and Oztumer leave on frees in recent seasons but are still doing OK. Let's be honest we don't need a 20 goals a season super striker all we needed were strikers capable of scoring 10 goals each a season, not just 1 or 2 by January if if we're lucky. If you look at the strikers we've signed since DC took over only Taylor has got into double figures regularly, Bodin only joined as he was mates with Harrison, and Harrison was already at the club.I don't think the present recruitment set up at the club as a clue how to sign a decent striker. The list of failures is endless White, Gaffney, Telford, Mensah, Nichols, Reilly, Jakubiak, Payne. I'm not trying to rewrite history. He went for nothing because his contract was up. I'm merely estimating his worth to us as a team. Let's say his worth to us was only around £100k then, on the basis it would probably cost at least that to find a replacement as good. Say he's worth nothing...we're still left with more valuable talent leaving than coming in. Talking of rewriting history, you are effectiely giving DC no credit for Bodin. Surely he deserves credit for the part he played in his rise? Of your list of failures, I'd argue that Telford and Jakubiak are/were loanees and that Gaffney was an absolute success. Mensah and Reilly...who knows, but I'll give you Payne and White and, reluctantly, Nichols (as a striker he must be judged on goals, not quality, and has therefore failed). All opinions!
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Post by Topper Gas on Dec 12, 2018 19:14:59 GMT
If what LB & DC said is correct in their interviews at the end of last season then the club made no attempts whatsoever to offer him a new contract. I sense you're trying to rewrite history by saying he was worth £500K, when in truth he was worth zero in the transfer market. Walsall have seen both Etheridge and Oztumer leave on frees in recent seasons but are still doing OK. Let's be honest we don't need a 20 goals a season super striker all we needed were strikers capable of scoring 10 goals each a season, not just 1 or 2 by January if if we're lucky. If you look at the strikers we've signed since DC took over only Taylor has got into double figures regularly, Bodin only joined as he was mates with Harrison, and Harrison was already at the club.I don't think the present recruitment set up at the club as a clue how to sign a decent striker. The list of failures is endless White, Gaffney, Telford, Mensah, Nichols, Reilly, Jakubiak, Payne. I'm not trying to rewrite history. He went for nothing because his contract was up. I'm merely estimating his worth to us as a team. Let's say his worth to us was only around £100k then, on the basis it would probably cost at least that to find a replacement as good. Say he's worth nothing...we're still left with more valuable talent leaving than coming in. Talking of rewriting history, you are effectiely giving DC no credit for Bodin. Surely he deserves credit for the part he played in his rise? Of your list of failures, I'd argue that Telford and Jakubiak are/were loanees and that Gaffney was an absolute success. Mensah and Reilly...who knows, but I'll give you Payne and White and, reluctantly, Nichols (as a striker he must be judged on goals, not quality, and has therefore failed). All opinions! I'm not really sure who takes the credit for a successful striker is it DC or our forwards coach MS, anyway my point was about recruitment, our only regular 10+ goals a season striker, who we've actually gone out and recruited, rather than already being at the club or the player himself asked for a trial since DC took over was Taylor. Just realised I missed James from my earlier list so it's an incredible 9 strikers signed but not one who's scored more than a handful of goals for us, we can make it a round 10 if we include Brunt who, I recall, was still with us at the start of our Conference season.
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Post by lpgas on Dec 12, 2018 19:18:13 GMT
Bodin was a good player before his injury and recovery. Remember Ellis got him a trial, and DC gave him a very short contract to prove he was ok and worth keeping, meanwhile we sign a left back, who it was hoped was going to make his debut in September. Somewhat ironic really. DC knew Brown was leaving in April, so had more than enough time to find a decent replacement, and Gaffney shot off at the very beginning of the window, but its 6 weeks before any replacement is found. Truth is we have a big squad for this level full of mediocre players, we have too many that can play centre half,(7) and none of them are particulary good, and the same in midfield. Behind all this we have some promising youngsters. We should cut the first team and every match have 2 youngsters on the bench. As for loans another joke, Telford , volunteered to play in reserves to get game time, and looked more like scoring than Nichols, but Nichols is always first on the team sheet. We should have kept Luke and saved a lot of money.
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Post by lpgas on Dec 12, 2018 19:23:09 GMT
I'm not trying to rewrite history. He went for nothing because his contract was up. I'm merely estimating his worth to us as a team. Let's say his worth to us was only around £100k then, on the basis it would probably cost at least that to find a replacement as good. Say he's worth nothing...we're still left with more valuable talent leaving than coming in. Talking of rewriting history, you are effectiely giving DC no credit for Bodin. Surely he deserves credit for the part he played in his rise? Of your list of failures, I'd argue that Telford and Jakubiak are/were loanees and that Gaffney was an absolute success. Mensah and Reilly...who knows, but I'll give you Payne and White and, reluctantly, Nichols (as a striker he must be judged on goals, not quality, and has therefore failed). All opinions! I'm not really sure who takes the credit for a successful striker is it DC or our forwards coach MS, anyway my point was about recruitment, our only regular 10+ goals a season striker, who we've actually gone out and recruited, rather than already being at the club or the player himself asked for a trial since DC took over was Taylor. Just realised I missed James from my earlier list so it's an incredible 9 strikers signed but not one who's scored more than a handful of goals for us, we can make it a round 10 if we include Brunt who, I recall, was still with us at the start of our Conference season. He was less than positive about Jakubiacs goal scoring ability, saying he needed to score some "tap ins". Hardly encouraging. Meanwhile he "recommends Nichols", and despite appearing over 50 times he has yet to score more than one in the league, and that wasn't a tap in either
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Post by gaseous on Dec 12, 2018 20:05:30 GMT
If what LB & DC said is correct in their interviews at the end of last season then the club made no attempts whatsoever to offer him a new contract. I sense you're trying to rewrite history by saying he was worth £500K, when in truth he was worth zero in the transfer market. Walsall have seen both Etheridge and Oztumer leave on frees in recent seasons but are still doing OK. Let's be honest we don't need a 20 goals a season super striker all we needed were strikers capable of scoring 10 goals each a season, not just 1 or 2 by January if if we're lucky. If you look at the strikers we've signed since DC took over only Taylor has got into double figures regularly, Bodin only joined as he was mates with Harrison, and Harrison was already at the club.I don't think the present recruitment set up at the club as a clue how to sign a decent striker. The list of failures is endless White, Gaffney, Telford, Mensah, Nichols, Reilly, Jakubiak, Payne. Let's be honest, of the players that you have mentioned, only Nichols and gaffney have had a good run in the side and gaffer's not really, that's why he left. Reilly and Jakubiak need to have a run in the side, Reilly starting Saturday and keep playing him, he can score goals, look on YouTube, it might've have been in Scotland but he does know where the goals is. Nichols didn't score a one on one with the keeper on his debut, Reilly did.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 20:07:51 GMT
I'm not really sure who takes the credit for a successful striker is it DC or our forwards coach MS, anyway my point was about recruitment, our only regular 10+ goals a season striker, who we've actually gone out and recruited, rather than already being at the club or the player himself asked for a trial since DC took over was Taylor. Just realised I missed James from my earlier list so it's an incredible 9 strikers signed but not one who's scored more than a handful of goals for us, we can make it a round 10 if we include Brunt who, I recall, was still with us at the start of our Conference season. He was less than positive about Jakubiacs goal scoring ability, saying he needed to score some "tap ins". Hardly encouraging. Meanwhile he "recommends Nichols", and despite appearing over 50 times he has yet to score more than one in the league, and that wasn't a tap in either Thing is, Marcus is right isn't he. Jak won't score many like that and needs to start scoring 'regulation' goals from.the chances that come along on a regular basis. Mind you, he's not alone in that.
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Post by gaseous on Dec 12, 2018 20:09:56 GMT
The problem lies in the fact that DC keeps changing it and doesn't play a settled side. To go forward he must changes this not change it!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 20:11:48 GMT
I'm not trying to rewrite history. He went for nothing because his contract was up. I'm merely estimating his worth to us as a team. Let's say his worth to us was only around £100k then, on the basis it would probably cost at least that to find a replacement as good. Say he's worth nothing...we're still left with more valuable talent leaving than coming in. Talking of rewriting history, you are effectiely giving DC no credit for Bodin. Surely he deserves credit for the part he played in his rise? Of your list of failures, I'd argue that Telford and Jakubiak are/were loanees and that Gaffney was an absolute success. Mensah and Reilly...who knows, but I'll give you Payne and White and, reluctantly, Nichols (as a striker he must be judged on goals, not quality, and has therefore failed). All opinions! I'm not really sure who takes the credit for a successful striker is it DC or our forwards coach MS, anyway my point was about recruitment, our only regular 10+ goals a season striker, who we've actually gone out and recruited, rather than already being at the club or the player himself asked for a trial since DC took over was Taylor. Just realised I missed James from my earlier list so it's an incredible 9 strikers signed but not one who's scored more than a handful of goals for us, we can make it a round 10 if we include Brunt who, I recall, was still with us at the start of our Conference season. I guess if you're talking recruitment alone then you're right. But that ignores the fact that, even after Taylor left, we had Gaffney, Bodin and Harrison who were all capable of goals. DC and his management team improved all three with presumably good coaching and man management. Strikers are always going to be the hardest player to find. We've lost 3 or 4 and in my opinion it's caught up with us.
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Post by axegas on Dec 12, 2018 21:11:01 GMT
Exactly, I'm fed up of using that logic because no-one seems to listen and keeps banging on about selling best players like we are the ONLY club it happens to. Some seem to be bitrerly disappointed because they exoected us to be competing for promotion after selling Harrison Bodin and Taylor and that was never going to happen- but to use those players as an excuse for being in the relegation zone, well...being in the relegation zone is inexcusable. Even DC has said himself that his budget was competitive so we should really be putting this argument to bed unless anyone is going to accuse DC of telling lies about how much he has been given? He has underachieved this season, massively. He admits so himself. End of. We're by no means the only club thatbhas to sell its best players. Nor are we the only club that has to replace them for less than the departing players were worth. That is the lot of the lower league club manager. However, it doesn't remove the fact that doing so makes the job that much harder and eventually will catch up with you, particularly when you sell as many good players as we have in a short space of time. Look at what we have sold since getting in to League 1 (not saying it was wrong they were sold, but the fact remains that they were): Taylor - worth to us a conservative £1m? Bodin - ditto. Harrison - worth to us a conservative 750k? Brown - worth to us a conservative 500k? Appreciate that these figures are subjective, but I've tried to be conservative with their valuations and it still amounts to over £3m of talent. We've replaced them with the following: Nichols - estimated £350k? Bennett - free (accepting there is no such thing but minimal expenditure nonetheless) Payne - estimated £200k? THD - appearance based so again, minimal cost. So we've replaced over £3m worth of players with something between half and three quarters of a millon. As I say, it's not exclusive to Rovers but surely it stands to reason that the quality will drop? It's just finally caught up with us. I still say though that we have enough quality to stay in this league, but the players and yes, the manager, have to perform better than they currently are. Lets just acknowledge the difficulty in doing so against such a background though. The thing is though, the £750k that we reinvested in players ought to have been enough to have have got us at least 2-3 league one quality players that would have filled the places of those departed and at least made us competitive at this level. In an ideal world we would have wanted the £2m to reinvest and bring in quality proven strikers and wingers to make it seem like the departure of our star players seem like they never happened but we've just got to accept that for a club like Bristol Rovers, this is simply unrealistic. For this I don't even blame the board to a large extent, what I blame is years of mediocracy, drifting around the third and forth tiers of English football whilst suffering from a chronic lack of investment in the infrastructure of the club ensuring we never unlocked the potential of what the club could of been and indeed what the club can still be. Usually price tags are set based on age, hype, reputation and position so are not just indicative of quality alone. All clubs at this level are selling clubs regardless of budget and stature so this means that arguably recruitment is the biggest determining factor of a sides success. Walsall for example got even less for their three star players in Oztumer, Bradshaw and Etheridge than we did for Taylor, Bodin and Harrison but some astute signings brought in on less of a transfer budget than we have in Leahy, Cook and Ferrier see them just outside the playoffs and in the third round of the FA Cup. My point is that the quality of the team doesn't have to necessarily drop as long as a strategy is in place to negate these losses with players brought in for less money who have the potential to be just as good. Where we went wrong is we tried to buy ready made players that had been tried and tested at this level who had never really been star names, weren't going to get any better and had achieved their success in teams who had arguably been more than the sum of their parts eg Upson at Yeovil, Payne and Rodman at Shrewsbury. Our recruitment strategy has been what has let us down, more than poor management or underinvestment in the playing squad this year and I think we need to understand this. I'm not going to immediately point the finger at TW as he has only had one transfer window so far and some of the players signed, take Upson and Rodman for example, DC has been interested in for a good while now. In fact TW could be the answer to our troubles and bring in the quality that we need to really improve ourselves in January, from what I understand he has a good track record with many accrediting Coventry's turn around in fortunes with the recruitment overseen by himself. In response to your final point, I think that our success will depend upon January and who we bring in then. We aren't a side that will slump to the bottom of the league, I've seen enough of us in this campaign for me to say that I do think we will pick up more wins over the course of the season, however I genuinely fear that we could occupy the last relegation spot come the end of the season and engaged in a relegation dogfight with clubs who will spend more to stop the rot than us in January unless the current board yield to DC's demands and give him what he decides necessary to turn thing around. I'm pinning my hopes on the season on this being achieved however unlikely it is, I want more than anything for our L1 status to be intact come next august.
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