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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 15:06:43 GMT
MT has given them chances but they've been mainly woeful, perhaps it is MT or perhaps they can't just step up to the pressures of L1 football in just a short period of time, as I've said before if it's so easy to just sign youngsters and expect them to immediately perform to L1 level why do most clubs have a decent mixture of youth and experience. Yesterday's subs all had points to prove but apart from Hunt they all went missing. Has he given them a chance? Have they actually “woeful”? Who do you actually mean? Macca, Promise and Shaq have all played plenty of league 1 football. Conteh has played plenty last season under pressure. Hutchinson has nearly 200 games under his belt. Garrett has played 30 times in the championship. I consider being given a chance 5/6/7 games not less than 3 in an ever changing side, while the manager undermines any confidence they may have had. Maybe they had points to prove maybe they didn’t. Maybe they felt as demotivated as the rest of us watching the sh**e? Even if they were motivated and had points to prove coming on in a game where you’re getting battered is hardly a great opportunity. I tell you who have been woeful….the likes of Ward, Wilson, Thomas and to a degree Lindsay although he has been injured….and they’re neither young or inexperienced. |
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Post by wertongas on Sept 29, 2024 15:38:39 GMT
Like I said on another thread , when Barton was sacked the owners said it was because of poor results, well since Taylor took over results have got worse, so how can they justify keeping him. I would perhaps replace him with Holloway as caretaker to boost moral, but would like to see Glen Whelan offered the job, played over 600 games across all divisions, over 90 times for his country, was coach and player here, knows the club well and is now a fully qualified coach at Wigan. He has a wealth of experience in the game and is probably ready for management. How do you know Holloway would boost moral, bringing in a football dinosaur who hasn't managed for 4 years may have the opposite effect on a young squad? As far as Whelan you sense he didn't leave on the best terms and as recently got a coaching job at Wigan, so why would he want to return and is he even ready for management anyway, getting Mangan back makes more sense but that's just as unlikely. Whelan left because Taylor wanted to bring his own team in and look what has happened.
Holloway probably would not want to be a caretaker manager for us any way we are in such a mess.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 29, 2024 15:56:34 GMT
MT has given them chances but they've been mainly woeful, perhaps it is MT or perhaps they can't just step up to the pressures of L1 football in just a short period of time, as I've said before if it's so easy to just sign youngsters and expect them to immediately perform to L1 level why do most clubs have a decent mixture of youth and experience. Yesterday's subs all had points to prove but apart from Hunt they all went missing. Has he given them a chance? Have they actually “woeful”? Who do you actually mean? Macca, Promise and Shaq have all played plenty of league 1 football. Conteh has played plenty last season under pressure. Hutchinson has nearly 200 games under his belt. Garrett has played 30 times in the championship. I consider being given a chance 5/6/7 games not less than 3 in an ever changing side, while the manager undermines any confidence they may have had. Maybe they had points to prove maybe they didn’t. Maybe they felt as demotivated as the rest of us watching the sh**e? Even if they were motivated and had points to prove coming on in a game where you’re getting battered is hardly a great opportunity. I tell you who have been woeful….the likes of Ward, Wilson, Thomas and to a degree Lindsay although he has been injured….and they’re neither young or inexperienced. Hutchinson is just another Westbrook, in the right team he might be a good player, with our lightweight midfield he becomes just a passenger, I'd love to know who thought he'd fit into the way we play, the VP, GF or MT, he certainly doesn't look like the player the latter would sign. I've no idea how we can fit him into our team if we want to play with two strikers. |
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 16:34:20 GMT
Hutchinson is just another Westbrook, in the right team he might be a good player, with our lightweight midfield he becomes just a passenger, I'd love to know who thought he'd fit into the way we play, the VP, GF or MT, he certainly doesn't look like the player the latter would sign. I've no idea how we can fit him into our team if we want to play with two strikers. Done well there pal. He’s played the equivalent of less than 3 games! Are you Matt Taylor 🤣 You always bring it back to him so go on I’ll have a go at making a case for the defence…I don’t mind a bit of research. According to Transfermarkt, he played in a side last season who always played 2 up front and mainly as a CM not an ACM. Over his last 100 games he’s averaged pretty much a goal or an assist every other game and if you include the only time (inc Pre Season) that he’s played 90 mins he has the same ratio here too! League 1 is a step up from league 2 but it’s not more physical and while I agree he hasn’t set the world alight I’ve seen some signs of things that no one else who’s played there has done. He’s still 3rd in the xG, 2nd in shots per game, 3rd in key passes per game…. He played in the first three games where we took 4 points and two clean sheets…..has it improved since? If we’d had Chris Martin playing he’d more than likely have at least 3 league assists so far and if he’d if he’d shown a little more quality and / or luck he’d have scored v Northampton and Rotherham so got in good positions for a midfield player. Hes averaged more won tackles per game than Grant Ward 🤣 Lindsay and McCormick. And despite playing less minutes he’s also blocked more shots in total than Ward, Moore, Mola and Conteh. And blocked more passes than Bilongo, Ward, McCormick, Wilson, Moore and Garrett. He’s actually played less minutes than all of the following who play in similar attacking positions :- Jake Garrett On or around 180 less than Sotiriou, Bilongo and Ward 300 less than Promise Nearly 400 less than Thomas!! None of those players have done anything any better or been any more impactful, so is there a suggestion they’re struggling with league 1 football? Calling him Zain Westbrooke is premature. In my opinion. |
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Post by Quarters on Sept 29, 2024 17:06:47 GMT
Hutchinson is just another Westbrook, in the right team he might be a good player, with our lightweight midfield he becomes just a passenger, I'd love to know who thought he'd fit into the way we play, the VP, GF or MT, he certainly doesn't look like the player the latter would sign. I've no idea how we can fit him into our team if we want to play with two strikers. Done well there pal. He’s played the equivalent of less than 3 games! Are you Matt Taylor 🤣 You always bring it back to him so go on I’ll have a go at making a case for the defence…I don’t mind a bit of research. According to Transfermarkt, he played in a side last season who always played 2 up front and mainly as a CM not an ACM. Over his last 100 games he’s averaged pretty much a goal or an assist every other game and if you include the only time (inc Pre Season) that he’s played 90 mins he has the same ratio here too! League 1 is a step up from league 2 but it’s not more physical and while I agree he hasn’t set the world alight I’ve seen some signs of things that no one else who’s played there has done. He’s still 3rd in the xG, 2nd in shots per game, 3rd in key passes per game…. He played in the first three games where we took 4 points and two clean sheets…..has it improved since? If we’d had Chris Martin playing he’d more than likely have at least 3 league assists so far and if he’d if he’d shown a little more quality and / or luck he’d have scored v Northampton and Rotherham so got in good positions for a midfield player. Hes averaged more won tackles per game than Grant Ward 🤣 Lindsay and McCormick. And despite playing less minutes he’s also blocked more shots in total than Ward, Moore, Mola and Conteh. And blocked more passes than Bilongo, Ward, McCormick, Wilson, Moore and Garrett. He’s actually played less minutes than all of the following who play in similar attacking positions :- Jake Garrett On or around 180 less than Sotiriou, Bilongo and Ward 300 less than Promise Nearly 400 less than Thomas!! None of those players have done anything any better or been any more impactful, so is there a suggestion they’re struggling with league 1 football? Calling him Zain Westbrooke is premature. In my opinion. I would suggest we look better when Ward is on the pitch. What do the stats say? |
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 17:09:11 GMT
As an individual or with results?
He’s started in each of the games we’ve picked up points tbf.
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Post by Quarters on Sept 29, 2024 17:11:38 GMT
As an individual or with results? He’s started in each of the games we’ve picked up points tbf. What was the score when he came on against Peterborough? |
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 17:15:56 GMT
As an individual or with results? He’s started in each of the games we’ve picked up points tbf. What was the score when he came on against Peterborough? Are you attributing 2 goals in two minutes in a game where Peterborough had completely lost their way after going 3-0 up to Grant Ward coming on? I’m not saying he had no impact btw I just think that spell was completely and utterly freakish and it’s much much easier to have a go at a game when it’s that bad….momentum is everything and it had already shifted. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 29, 2024 17:18:44 GMT
As an individual or with results? He’s started in each of the games we’ve picked up points tbf. So with our own eyes we look better with Ward on the pitch than with Hutch? I can't find any videos on Youtube of uis assists or general play but most of his goals come from shots etc from the edge of the penalty area, similar to where MT's played him he seems to favour the head of a diamond, rather than in a traditional number 8's position like Ward. The comments on the YouTube video from Walsall fans when he departed suggest he was inconsistent for them, usually playing 1 good game in 4, I can't see how that's good enough for Rovers in the engine room of the team. Looking at Walsall's results this season they don't seem to be missing his presence in midfield!! |
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Post by gashead4ever on Sept 29, 2024 17:43:04 GMT
at the end of the day it all comes down to really really poor tactics from the manager
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 17:43:26 GMT
So with our own eyes we look better with Ward on the pitch than with Hutch? Well that’s entirely subjective. No one can argue with what someone wants to see and it’s a scientific fact that people will see what they want to see. I can't find any videos on Youtube of uis assists or general play but most of his goals come from shots etc from the edge of the penalty area, similar to where MT's played him he seems to favour the head of a diamond, rather than in a traditional number 8's position like Ward. I think it would be mad to compare Ward and Hutchinson as a one or the other or similar in any way as players at all either in style or type and I’m not sure anyone was doing that were they? The comments on the YouTube video from Walsall fans when he departed suggest he was inconsistent for them, usually playing 1 good game in 4, Our fans said exactly the same about Anthony Evans and I’m sure Huddersfield fans will say the same. It’s quite typical of that type of player because as I’ve demonstrated above some of those statements will have surprised a few people. Fans generally want those types (as with Evans) to produce a moment of magic every week and that just doesn’t happen and when it doesn’t the perception then becomes that they’ve been poor. 1 in 4 is fairly relatable to being a match winner but hardly accurate in general terms or it would translate to just 25 good games in a 100! You dont win player of the year anywhere like that. I can't see how that's good enough for Rovers in the engine room of the team. Looking at Walsall's results this season they don't seem to be missing his presence in midfield!! Walsall, like most teams at this level had quite a turn over of players every off season. To attribute their good form to the loss of their player of the season is funny. I’m not suggesting he’s been great. Far from it. But the narrative surrounding him struggling with league 1 just isn’t accurate and to write him off after 250 minutes is just stupid imo. |
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Post by Quarters on Sept 29, 2024 17:52:41 GMT
Am not comparing Ward to Hutch, you called out Ward.
But I feel we are better with Ward on the pitch than you suggest, I think Manse said the same.
Also think in the correct formation Conteh and Ward for the starting partnership for the midfield..
Maybe that's a 4 2 3 1 so the question is then is Hutch the best choice for the middle of the 3?
If 4 4 2, I cannot see how Hutch is viable.
3 4 1 2 then I can see Hutch being pivotable in the 1.
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 17:59:28 GMT
Am not comparing Ward to Hutch, you called out Ward. But I feel we are better with Ward on the pitch than you suggest, I think Manse said the same. Also think in the correct formation Conteh and Ward for the starting partnership for the midfield.. Maybe that's a 4 2 3 1 so the question is then is Hutch the best choice for the middle of the 3? If 4 4 2, I cannot see how Hutch is viable. 3 4 1 2 then I can see Hutch being pivotable in the 1. I’m really not sure where I’ve called Ward out? I was responding to an individual quote which singled out one player (Hutchinson) and i had a go at demonstrating why I thought the post was unfair or inaccurate. Within that there were some comparisons to several players, that’s all. I agree. I don’t think there’s a role Hutchinson in a 442. But I also think in that formation we’d struggle to accommodate Thomas too other than either or both wide with some freedom to roam. But with a 442 I’d worry even more about our attacking play than I already do! I’ve always championed a 4231 and yesterday was close to that and I think we were all surprised with SS inclusion (and even more so with ow that went!!) 🤣👍 |
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 18:05:17 GMT
Btw I was just watching the game on catch up and anyone claiming a foul for the winning goal needs to take their BR blinkers off 🤣🤣 Mola was pretty much tearing Lows shirt off his back from the moment he started his run.
However again I think this is a set up issue. Just as with Wigan why do we have players not known for heading ability marking areas where opposition will invariably load up their best headerers of the ball?
v Wigan it was Hutchinson and then Sotiriou at the back post and yesterday Mola is caught marking the 6’5” Lowe!!! Why wasn’t he being marked by Taylor? Big on big is the oldest unwritten rule in defending set pieces in history!!
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 29, 2024 18:06:58 GMT
So who drops out from yesterday's starting 11 and where does Hutch play, he's no winger so he'll have to play in central midfield, if that's the case who covers the left side of the pitch, given that just one slip by LT yesterday cost us a goal, so somebody clearly needs to do it?
I can't see where Hutch fits into an MT line up, he's a totally strange signing, particularly for the fee we paid.
You can see Garrett for example fitting into any of the CM roles, likewise the wingers are straight swaps, Hutch simply doesn't fit into the way MT sets his teams up. Perhaps a different manager will find a place for him but I doubt he was signed on that basis!
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 18:43:42 GMT
Are you asking what I’d do or what MT will do?
He’s been signed as an attacking midfielder but that’s not exclusive to centrally. In this day players who have come through top academies are all capable of playing various positions and using their skill set in that position.
You saw his position map. He’s played pro football in 6 different positions and got goals from all of them.
You’re suggesting he doesn’t fit this team but it was clear and stated by MT that he was signed to replace Evans so I see him playing the same role he had. That will take some patience though just as it did with Evans and just as it did with Collins and it would help if the side in general was more functional.
I’ll say this again, we don’t have forward at the club who will score 20 goals so it will take other positions to chip in and Hutchinson is the only midfielder we have in the entire club with a goalscoring history so it may be that we need to find a place for him no matter what.
My own personal opinion is he hasn’t been anywhere near as ineffective as some may consider and the post I made earlier was a fair demonstration of that. But he’s not getting any better sitting on his hands.
In answer to your question….Sotiriou played as a 10 yesterday and he’s been dire for weeks yet persevered with.
LT has been dire for weeks but has been persevered with.
I don’t think Hutchinson has been any worse than either of them or Macca or Garrett or imo Ward but has been most heavily criticised possibly due to an over expectation and possibly due to who he was replacing.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 29, 2024 20:04:46 GMT
I still can't see Hutch can play at No 10 as PC or GoD would then have no support, deeper in midfield and teams would just walk though our midfield, and it doesn't look like a winger to me.
MT is preserving with LT as there's nobody else who can play RWB or RW plus he came closest to scoring yesterday apart from the goal, he messed up for the equaliser but a bit harsh to criticise somebody for slipping.
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Post by warehamgas on Sept 29, 2024 20:16:06 GMT
Are there any examples that anyone knows of where a manager has had such a bad start as MT (including second half of last season and the start to this one) and survived and gone on to be a great success? Last season Grant McCann, Doncaster had an awful Autumn. Near bottom of League 2 the they put in a great shift under McCann to get to playoffs and just miss out. UTG! |
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Post by igotgas on Sept 29, 2024 20:23:14 GMT
It’s quite a popular tactic to use attacking midfield players off the sides inverted.
It allows you to play 3 more conventional CMs which offers more defence strength and if their movement is intelligent they roll inside into pockets of space exactly the same as No 10s but causing more chaos because fulls don’t want to be drawn inside to mark because attacking full backs would bomb on and cause chaos.
James Maddison does it.
Phil Foden does it.
Jack Grealish does it.
Kai Havertz has done it.
Ebrere Eze does it.
Mason Mount did it.
Before you say it I’m not comparing anyone I’m just demonstrating that it’s not new and it’s an alternative to playing what you clearly consider traditional wingers.
MT will want to accommodate Hutchinson sooner or later because he’s a goal threat and if he’s too cautious to play him centrally he’ll try to play him off the left.
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Post by Topper Gas on Sept 29, 2024 20:36:17 GMT
Most of those players seem to have real pace, Hutch doesn't seem to have it from what I've seen. Lets see if he gets any game time this week given we've 3 games in 8 days.
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